I don't like ad's like this

[littleindiangirl]

This just further proves Wes's comment.

Connie, have you talked to your local SPCA about the add? They might be able to do something.

Agreed on the comment.

As to the SPCA... they don't have any grounds to assume they are going to open a mill. In fact, what constitutes a puppy mill? Breeding dogs isn't illegal, it's more often the conditions the dogs are kept in that get people in trouble.

I'm very picky when it comes to backyard breeders. On the one hand, if they are well aware of breed specific problems and are in it for the GOOD and BETTERMENT of the breed (whatever it may be) then I'm all for it.

I do NOT like the "designer dogs" that are made for the SOLE purpose of making as many as possible and selling for money. (which I believe the ad is leaning to)

There is no care for physical well being, tests to ensure sound bodies and temperament, no training in skills of obedience, tracking, working etc... They are made solely for MONEY, and because of this silly notion that their mutts are worth more than a purebred animal that has roots going back hundreds of years.

Yes, I don't mind breeding of different breeds within reason, that's how many of our breeds were brought around, but this willy nilly mix and match, cabbage patch crap pisses me off. It's for lining their pockets, not for making a better and more capable working or companion animal.

Go to the pound for heavens sake, I love going to the pound and seeing all the smiley dogs. They have so much love and companionship to give. I will give my home to one of them sometime hopefully soon.

[wolfy-hound]

[QUOTE=Patrick Long;834721]If you think mixing species of dogs is the same with breeding different morphs of Ball Pythons....you need to leave.

I cannot begin to describe how assinine this statement sounds. A poodle bred to a great dane, WILL NEVER be the same as a bumblebee or whatever was quoted. The fact that you even think that is quite scary.
End quote

If YOU think species is the same as breeds, then maybe you need to check your facts. A dog is a species. A dane is a breed. A dane is a dog.
A pastel ball python is a ball python. A spider ball python is a ball python. Breeding the two together is like mixing a dane and pekenise GENETICALLY. NOT physically, not morally.
It's genetics I was discussing, and not the morals, which I then went into seperately.

Breeding for profit without regard to the health and well-being of any animal is wrong. Which I said. I merely am pointing out that you cannot say that it's a mix of two Species to breed two dogs together, no matter what Breed they are.

There are plenty of good breeders of dogs, and tons and tons of bad ones. Don't support the bad ones, and shut down anyone who is uncaring of the welfare of their animals, no matter what species they breed.
And maybe try to stay a little polite when posting. I know.. it's a stretch when someone doesn't mimic exactly what you said. Just try real hard.

[aahmn]

Wolfy-hound is correct on this one. All dogs are the same species, regardless of their physical traits. They have the same genetic makeup, though the traits vary. It's like if you selectively bred large ball pythons and small ones separately, and over many many generations of line breeding, you ended up with a line of large snakes and a line of small snakes. They may look physically different, but they are still ball pythons. There probably isn't as much variation in other traits besides color, though, but I was just trying to make a comparison. It can't at all be compared to breeding two separate species. Any background in basic genetics will tell you that.

And yes, I also have a problem with ads like that because there are a lot of dogs that need homes and obviously they are putting no thought into the health and well-being of these dogs.

[Nate]

All of the bickering is moved to the Quarantine room.

If you need access, please PM any Admin (name in red)

[NightLad]

I view mixing BP morphs as being purely aesthetic - the snake is still a ball python, it just has different coloring/patterns. It still acts like a BP, with all the same general temperament and habits, etc.

But dogs are not BPs. When you mix dog breeds you warp the fundamental aspects of the dog; its intelligence, temperament, behaviour, not to mention the various physical traits. Mutts really are mixed-bags, no pun intended.

When you have a pure-blood dog you can safely make statements like, "such-and-such is typical for this breed." With mutts you can't do that. One may inherit the loyalty of its fathers breed with the hunting instinct of its mothers, while a sibling may inherit a warped hunting streak from mom resulting in heightened aggression, with a warped sense of loyalty to the person it views as the 'pack leader' to the exclusion of all others... including your children. You just don't know.

On an ethical note; mutts also inherit the health problems from both of its parent’s breeds. Keep in mind that often the breeds being mixed originate from radically different parts of the world, where they’ve respectively evolved to possess traits specific to that location. Was a stout thick-furred Husky really meant to breed with an Arabian racing hound? Its offspring (I think they call it a “Huscbian”) suffers from crippling arthritis and is prone to heatstroke, seizures, and a plethora of other medical issues which many feel is a result of the mixing of such opposite breeds. But people still do it. They look "cute" as puppies.

I am against this new craze of creating mutts and calling them "designer". I think it dilutes the gene pool to a detrimental end.

There are people who've spent centuries maintaining breeds of dog with pure blood for a reason. Sadly, I think the vast majority of people who take up this latest craze are motivated by one thing... $$$.

[Holbeird]

Personally I don't have a problem with "designer dogs" all together. I think if someone wants a golden doodle or whatever thats fine but I think that any of the mixed breed dogs should be fixed. If I want to breed a poodle with a golden to make golden doodles, fine, but all of the puppies should be forced to be fixed as there is no point in them being intact imho if they are not purebred.

[Mendel's Balls]

Mixing a borneo and a ball is mixing species. Mixing a pug and a poodle is mixing "morphs" of one species(the dog).
There's no real difference genetically in making a "puggle" than making a "bumblebee", since both mix seperate distinctly bred lines.
The REAL LIFE difference is in breeding dogs when many dogs are being put to sleep in shelters. But then you get.. why breed ANY dogs? It's a large can o worms to breed any dog.. whether purebred or not. Why not restrict breeding to only the very prime healthiest stock of purebred AKC breeds? Well.. because not all breeds are recognized by AKC. Some people prefer non-purebreds thinking purebreds are all inbred. Some like this.. some like that.
If someone breeds a litter of pups, correctly cares for parents and pups, and sells them into a good home, then I see no moral difference to that, than in a purebred breeder doing the same. There are many purebreds in shelters too!
That said, the ad is "clearly to me" for a mill type organization, since a family should not need that many dogs that they are advertising for, nor that many different breeds.
Why not charge big bucks for "mutts"? If someone will pay it, then charge it. Maybe that mutt will have more value in their eyes if they pay a big price. The issue is normally that people then try to breed THEIR dogs.. thinking they will make big money.. then they skimp on the care of the animals.. or skimp on the checking out the buyers...
Well.. another long ramble.
The big difference to me is that snakes are solitary by nature, and prefer to not have contact and socialization for the most part. Dogs are more needy, needing care and exercise and attention and affection and training. Can you keep 50 dogs for breeding and give ALL of them that? Now.. can you keep 50 snakes and give them what they need? Probaly so.
Unless you walk your snakes with that ultra cool snake walker of course...

Breeding 2 different kinds of dogs is not like breeding 2 different kinds of ball pythons. With 2 diff morphs of ball pythons, you have to remember that the only main differences are the colors and pattern of the snake. There arent any physical differences like size and shape of the animal. With dogs, they are all different sizes and shapes. In some cases it isnt even safe to breed 2 dogs together, or even physically possible (imagine a male great dane and a female chuhuahua for example) Even though some consider all dogs the same species, they have evolved to so many different breeds that it doesnt make sense to say a dog is a dog and all can/should be mixed. Would you say the same about snakes? Is a snake a snake? Going even more specific, is a python a python? Of course you can get diff kinds of pythons to breed just like you can get different kinds of dogs to breed but why would you want to mix them together when it is recognized by most serious breeders/owners as a mutt?

Wolfly-hound and corrupter both make good points. One of the reasons I think there is a lot of confusion in this thread is that there really is a lot of ambiguity surrounding the term "species". You see professional biologists have a lot of difficultly right now defining exactly what a species. Often biologists define two different organisms as a separate species more on their exact field of work rather than easy to follow set of hard and fast rules. In biology, there are many different concepts of a species.


Two very similar looking snake species may actually have more in common genetically than two different breeds of dogs. Furthermore, say intelligent life evolves long after the human species disappears from this planet or an extraterrestrial intelligence visits this planet long after we are gone. Their paleontologists may very well classify a great dane and a pug as different species based on the morphological species concept.

Depending on what type of species concept you use you can classify two different organisms as the same species or different species. I do not think whether or not two organisms are classified as the same species has anything to do with whether or not you "should" breed the two organisms together in society.
In other words, I dont think you can use the fact that two different organisms are of a separate species as a hard and fast rule in breeding ethics. Because there is no one hard and fast concept of species!

For example, for argument’s sake in captivity I think you (could) make a better case that it is more ethical to breed a ball and an Angolan python together than say a two a male great dane and a female poodle. The female will need to have a c-section in order to deliver the pups. The c-section may need to be done earlier and many of the pups will likely be too premature to survive. This would not be the case for the hybrid offspring of the snakes.

That being said I don’t have anything per se against designer dogs or mutts. Some mutts are healthier than certain pure breed dogs. Some pure breed dogs, like pugs, can often only deliver by c-section. Some pure-breeds have tons of health problems that mutts don’t. Some pure-breeds are prone to seizures, hip dysplasia, breathing problems, etc. There are advantages of having a pure-breed-you are more likely to know what health problems to look out for and you have an idea of its temperament and final size. However, as wolfy pointed out there are now healthy lines of “designer dog breeds” such as labradoodles that are propagated by breeders that are not in it just for the money and are in it for the “betterment” of the breed and care of the dogs.

That being said I think the ad is a little iffy in that it seems they just want to buy all those different dogs outright without any respect to each of the dogs own particular characteristics. But I don’t think that is necessarily related to the designer dogs that would be created with that group. If I saw an ad that said “wanted 10 Italian greyhounds asap with breeding rights ”, then I would raise an eyebrow or two and be a little suspicious.

However, it hard to judge too much on a single ad, it has more to do with how the dogs are raised and treated. And some people just like too pass judgment too much in my opinion.

Some people judge me because I bought my Italian greyhound (iggy) from a breeder rather than adopt an iggy or just adopt any dog. “There are so many dogs that need good homes that need rescued, etc.” They say it as though I am contributing to the problem of dogs being in shelters.

However, some dogs up for adoption have developed bad habits and mean temperaments. Furthermore, my dog was born and it needed a good home eventually or it might have ended up in rescue. Also whose saying I would be able to put up with all of that and I may have just given the dog back to the shelter. Other people because of the time they have or their lifestyle may be able to put up and deal with retraining and that’s awesome. But that doesn’t mean that you should only get a dog from a shelter.

I went to the breeder’s home twice before buying it and saw the conditions my dog was born into and got references. It was a very family friendly home in which the puppies were brought into. We often get comments on how friendly and non-jittery our dog is compared to other Italian greyhounds.

I’m not even sure the breeders that we bought our iggy off of were totally in it for the “betterment” of the breed-to create show quality dogs etc. This couple had raised Italian greyhounds as pet for many years and had two small children---I think they were mostly breeding to make a few extra bucks for their kids college funds. But they had experience with the breed, animal care ethics, and they weren’t being greedy and just selling the puppies off asap. They were in it for the long haul for very good financial reasons. However, I know some people who would quickly dismiss them as "backyard breeders" because they dont do too much rescue or have a professional looking website, etc But I am pleased with the companion we obtained from them.

[blackcrystal22]

When you breed two different breeds of dogs, the offspring will look more like either one breed or the other...it takes successive generations of line breeding to get the pooches to 'breed true'...where all the pups will have a distinctive look.

These designer dogs are just first generation breeding experiments...no better than the Heinz57 at the pound, they shouldn't command hundreds of dollars.

And all I'll say to the comparison of BPs...they are a whole different animal... apples and oranges.

I don't know how true that is. My dog is a Chihuahua/Poodle mix. Heres a picture of her;
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs15/f/20...kcrystal22.png
And heres a picture of her brother and her as puppies;
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...DSC01541-1.jpg

Even through two generations (her parents and grandparents were both Chi/Poo mixes) they still have very definite characteristics of one or the other breed.

If thats not what you meant than nevermind.. Ahaha. :]

[dsirkle]

Aside from the "designer dog" issue and regarding the ad referred to in the first post, any respectable dog breeder would only breed dogs that were fine examples of the breed after determining that the dog conformed to breed standards and had excellent health. The dog should also possess a good pedigree (though I will admit to occasionally seeing nice dogs that were bred without papers but I wouldn't endorse doing that). This ad to buy any old dog for breeding purposes is obviously from a disgusting puppy mill that would breed without regard to passing on genetic problems to make the almighty dollar.

[jknudson]

I don't know how true that is. My dog is a Chihuahua/Poodle mix. Heres a picture of her;
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs15/f/20...kcrystal22.png
And heres a picture of her brother and her as puppies;
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...DSC01541-1.jpg

Even through two generations (her parents and grandparents were both Chi/Poo mixes) they still have very definite characteristics of one or the other breed.

If thats not what you meant than nevermind.. Ahaha. :]

That was exactly my point... to take these designer mixes, to make them a "defined breed" they would have to breed them further so you don't get the ambiguity of traits. All the puppies should look the same... To do this, it will take successive generations of breeding.