Normal X Pastel

[Brimstone111888]

I think it tends to confuse people when it is said that there is no such thing as a het pastel. It might be more accurate to say that there is no such thing as a "het FOR pastel". A pastel IS a het. It carries one of the two alleles for the pastel trait. Because it is co-dominant, it is a visual het. The homozygous form is, of course, the super pastel.

If anyone tries to sell you a normal looking snake saying that its a het pastel, or het for pastel, run! Since its co-dominant, if its a het, it shows.

A common misconception in the ball python breeding community is that the word heterozygous only applies to recessive traits. Thats just not true. Genetics is genetics. Hets exist with all genetic traits. Some are visible (co-dom and dom) and some aren't (recessive).

As far as dominant is concerned, spiders may or may not be. Nobody has proven that they have a homozygous spider. If its co-dom, the super either hasn't been produced (unlikely), or the spider gene is lethal in its homozygous form. I think thats also unlikely. If its dominant, then there should be homozygous spiders throwing 100% spider babies. I've heard rumors of that, but haven't seen any evidence. So it could still be lethal in its homozygous form. I'm not sure there are many people breeding spiders to spiders. Most are going for combos.

If the results of breeding a spider gives any non-spiders, then the parent spider isn't homozygous. Its heterozygous: a het.

Steve

I've said this before and got nothing but "You're crazy" responses. Glad someone else understands.

[LadyOhh]

I think it tends to confuse people when it is said that there is no such thing as a het pastel. It might be more accurate to say that there is no such thing as a "het FOR pastel". A pastel IS a het. It carries one of the two alleles for the pastel trait. Because it is co-dominant, it is a visual het. The homozygous form is, of course, the super pastel.

Agreed completely.

BUT! Using the phrase Het Pastel leads one to believe that it is a NORMAL het for pastel, which is why I felt the need to correct it.

Phrasing and word structure are all important when defining something like this.

[RandyRemington]

Using the phrase Het Pastel leads one to believe that it is a NORMAL het for pastel, which is why I felt the need to correct it.

That's because of the unfortunate and common misunderstanding in the ball python community of what the word heterozygous means. Hets are only normal looking with recessive mutations. Heterozygous really means having an unmatched pair of genes. Understanding that the pastel has one pastel mutated copy and one normal for pastel copy of the genes at the pastel locus makes it easy to understand that it a has a 50/50 chance of passing the pastel mutant version on to each of it's offspring.

As combinations involving different mutation types become more common I think it's worth the time to go back and understand genotypes as it will make predicting outcomes much easier.

[LadyOhh]

That's because of the unfortunate and common misunderstanding in the ball python community of what the word heterozygous means. Hets are only normal looking with recessive mutations. Heterozygous really means having an unmatched pair of genes. Understanding that the pastel has one pastel mutated copy and one normal for pastel copy of the genes at the pastel locus makes it easy to understand that it a has a 50/50 chance of passing the pastel mutant version on to each of it's offspring.

As combinations involving different mutation types become more common I think it's worth the time to go back and understand genotypes as it will make predicting outcomes much easier.

So you are saying that a normal can be Het for Pastel???

I think I am misunderstanding your arguement here.

[coldbloodaddict]

So you are saying that a normal can be Het for Pastel???

I think I am misunderstanding your arguement here.

Het def. -Having two different alleles for a single trait.

A Pastel is het for Super Pastel...The Super Pastel being the Homo.

[LadyOhh]

Het def. -Having two different alleles for a single trait.

A Pastel is het for Super Pastel...The Super Pastel being the Homo.

That I know.

But being HET PASTEL is construing that it is a Normal Het for Pastel, which is not possible...

Am I on the wrong track here? I feel like we may all be saying the same thing in different ways...

And yes, before you ask, I am quibbling with semantics.

[coldbloodaddict]

I guess technically they would be called het Super Pastels...Kind of like how a Yellow Belly is also called a het Ivory.

[Brimstone111888]

That I know.

But being HET PASTEL is construing that it is a Normal Het for Pastel, which is not possible...

Am I on the wrong track here? I feel like we may all be saying the same thing in different ways...

And yes, before you ask, I am quibbling with semantics.

You are thinking het means RECESSIVE, which it does not. A Het pastel is a normal pastel. Since it only has one pastel gene it is heterozygous. We don't use the extra word of "het" with pastel since it is unnesscessary, as the pastel gene is co-dom, therefore visual.

Het clown = Normal ball with 1 clown gene
Since clown is recessive the clown gene is not expressed in the phenotype

Het pastel = Normal ball with 1 pastel gene or commonly called a Pastel

Sicne pastel is co-dom the pastel gene is expressed in the phenotype.


I think your error Heather is in thinking het means recessive.

Hope I explained it clear enough if not I can try again

[PythonWallace]

These co-dom x normal questions have been popping up a lot lately. Maybe we can have a sticky with something like this:

Breeding a Co-dom x Normal results in 50% co-doms and 50% normals

Breeding a co-dom x co-dom results in 50% co-doms, 25% normals, and 25% supers

Breeding a dominant x normal results in 50% doms and 50% normals

Breeding a dominant x dominant results in 75% doms and 25% normals

Breeding a het x normal results in 50% hets and 50% normals with all of them appearing normal

Breeding a het x het results in 25% homozygous visual morph and 66% poss. hets, all appearing normal

Breeding a recessive visual x het results in 50% homozygous visual morph and the other half are 100% hets

Breeding a recessive visual to a normal results in 100% hets

Co-Doms:
pastel - super = super pastel
mojave - super = Blue eye leusistic
lesser - super = Blue eye leusistic
butter - super = Blue eye leusistic
black pastel - super = super black pastel (solid black)
cinnamon pastel - super = super cinny (solid black)
fire - super = Black eye leusistic
vanilla (thunder) - super = super vanilla aka lightning
woma - super = pearl
yellow belly - super = ivory
het red axanthic - super = red axanthic
spot nose - super = power ball
phantom - super = super phantom
Lori ball - super = super Lori ball
Enchi - super = super Enchi
sable - super = super sable
banana ball - super = ???

Dominants:
Spider
Pinstripe
calico?

Recessives:
Albino
Piebald
Clown
Axanthic
Hypo/Ghost
Caramel Albino
Lavendar albino
Genetic Stripe

[LadyOhh]

You are thinking het means RECESSIVE, which it does not. A Het pastel is a normal pastel. Since it only has one pastel gene it is heterozygous. We don't use the extra word of "het" with pastel since it is unnesscessary, as the pastel gene is co-dom, therefore visual.

Het clown = Normal ball with 1 clown gene
Since clown is recessive the clown gene is not expressed in the phenotype

Het pastel = Normal ball with 1 pastel gene or commonly called a Pastel

Sicne pastel is co-dom the pastel gene is expressed in the phenotype.

Your arguement is that a visual pastel is a Het Pastel. That to me is erroneous for this reason. How can you be Het for being visual considering it is a co-dom morph? The whole definition of co-dom is that there are normals and there are Pastels. Black and White, no grey in the middle.

Why use that definition when it is SO misleading?

I can understand where the arguement for a Pastel being het for SUPER pastel, but a normal pastel being het Pastel is not really semantically correct to me....