breeding the youngsters!!

[wolfy-hound]

I don't breed my 07s.. geez.. mine are so far from big enough it's not even funny. I can't get them to grow big enough in one year.

I'm not saying he shouldn't though. The female looks big enough, and looks really healthy, and obviously had a nice clutch. He's doing things differently than I choose to do them, which to me isn't right or wrong, just different.

The OP is a experianced keeper, and has gorgeous animals. Why should he be bashed for that? I understand the point too of saying "This is an experianced keeper breeding his 07s, and if you are new to ball pythons, you probably shouldn't try it yourself." It's akin to saying that a experianced keeper can handle a hot, but that a new person should not.

In any group of people, you tend to end up with a few people who are quick to jump, and others that aren't. There's also people who type something totally MEANING to say one thing, but it gets taken another due to typed word vs spoken. This is one of the friendliest sites I visit, and well-modded for threads getting out of hand. It doesn't seem militant to me.

Anyway, kudos on the eggs! I want to know more about what hatches! It's a fabulous opportunity to see if younger females throw more males, more smalls, more large females, more morphs? Learning is good.

[pythontricker]

Sorry, I ment 07 females!! I have 2 locked up right now!! Little fatties they are...

wait your breeding females that were born in 07 to other males?

[mischevious21]

Yea, congrats- I have a girl that was born in 1/06 thats still 600g away from being able to 'safely breed'- and it doesnt help that she now hasnt ate in 4 months.. Starting to get very worried.. but anyway, even when she was feeding weekly for me it was like she just took it in and let it out- shes growing so slow! Then you have my 6 month old pastel male- already 500g!! Genetics are amazing, how differnt they can be..

But anyway- congrats on the breeding

[pythontricker]

thats Amazing!

[Seneschal]

Congratulations, Jas!

I'm not writing to start an argument, or argue against what anyone else has written; I just want to express my opinion, and will try to do so in the least argumentative manner possible.

There needs to be a differentiation between the traditional "1500g and 1.5+ years for females, 1 year and 600+g for males" rule and the more innovative ideas and practices...and not because it's either better or worse to breed young or follow the norm, and not because it's better or worse to feed rats or mice, and not because it's better to keep them on aspen or newspaper, or any of those trivial things which really if done right don't have any long term negative effects on the animals...but because of the keepers. We as the keepers have an ultimate responsibility to our animals--we are responsible for them and their health and happiness.

As responsible keepers, it is important to understand that what works for an experienced, knowledgeable keeper who is in-tune with his or her animals and has things worked down to a fine science and who can accomplish incredible things with their animals which, for everyone else, seems fantastical, impossible, and yes, 'bad' as referring to the general 'rules' of breeding, may not work well or at all for a less knowledgeable or experienced keeper. It is the responsibility of the individual keeper to understand that and react accordingly based upon their individual knowledge, experiences, and their animals.

Not every 07 male will breed, just like not every 600g male will breed, and not every 07 female will breed--just like sometimes, a 1400g girl will refuse to breed! The thing is that our animals, snakes, are extremely variable, just like we are. As many morphs as there are perhaps it's time for people to start focusing on the less noticed variations--things more important than color, tone, shade, and pattern.

It's important to recognize that while not everyone agrees with it, what those outside of the norm do may seem like hearesy in the "bible" of our so commonly preached norms, it works for them. If it works for them, and their animals are obviously healthy and thriving and being provided for fantastically, and if we haven't even tried it ourselves for first-hand opinions...who are we to judge?

We haven't personally seen his feeding habits. Yes, it would be very unhealthy to feed a 2000g snake a 300g rat every five days to fatten it up, but I seriously doubt this is the case. I don't think that feeding a very small prey item every 4-5 days would be unhealthy; yes it would be a lot of calorific intake but as long as temps, humididy, etc. are spot on, and the keeper knows what to look for to make sure the animal's not becoming obese, it would actually be a very good way to make the animal grow quickly and gain weight quickly, and at a very young age like that the snakes can and do double their weight in a month.

The reason I say such frequent feeds would actually be beneficiary; the animal would not have time between feedings to completely shut down its digestive system, thus accounting for far less loss of calories and nutritional value in the food. And feeding small items frequently would make sure the snake doesn't have the strain or waste---or obesity problems---that feeding a larger item might cause. Yes, you would have to watch the animal very closely and know what you're doing, but in theory it sounds very possible and not dentrimental to the animal's health.

So much of the arguments on this website--and others, in the herp subculture, are based upon opinions and long-held views. Perhaps someone who came up with the 600g rule for males just happened to have males who wouldn't breed young, or perhaps they weren't doing something right. Perhaps the animals had been mis-sexed, and their perfectly healthy 1500g "girls" were actually males! That's the problem with listening to old rules and holding them as cement and absolutely right; because in nature nothing is set like that. In nature there aren't humans to prevent 700g girls from breeding, or to prevent 200g boys from breeding. Nothing in nature says it's impossible, and nothing I have seen from anyone on this site says it's impossible!!

The most important thing is to look at the animals and let them decide whether or not they are ready to breed, or eat, or anything. The animals won't breed if they aren't ready, or they'll slug out. Period. And if a keeper can safely get the animals to do so without causing them any harm, then kudos to them! More power to them!! And though not everyone would be comfortable trying it themselves, why should these people who have never even tried it bash those who do? They have no proof that it's bad to do so, having never tried it, and obviously it works well for Jas. Every picture I have seen of one of Jas' snakes indicates to me that his animals are healthy, strong, well hydrated and well taken care of.

Breeding young isn't for everybody. Just like feeding mice isn't, or keeping on newspaper, or initiating WC animals into captivity. However, that does not mean his practices are inherently wrong just because you or I aren't comfortable doing so or because the normal rules don't agree.

However I do agree that his practices, while safe and well-executed and obviously effective, are not for inexperienced keepers or even for experienced keepers who are breeding for the first time. I'm sure that when he first bred, both were in the "right" range in weight and age for breeding...however through experimentation and obvious success, he has established that it's entirely possible and not detrimental to do so. Why is doing something differently, if effective and unharmful, "wrong"?

I don't think it is. I admire him for how well he knows his animals and how in tune he is to them; he is obviously a very innovative person, and for that I commend him! I don't know if I'd try it with females at that age, but he's having success and she looks very healthy...how can I argue with results? How can anyone argue with results like that?

Like I said...not trying to cause an argument, just put forth my $.02. I like everybody on this site and feel personally connected to everyone, even though I don't always say much...I know I'm probably not well known and this post will likely be ignored mostly, but I've been lurking on a daily basis for a long time, and reading threads like this...I've seen a lot of what happened in this thread, it's just ususally less...extreme than this.

I'm actually a little hesitant to post this because I really, truly don't want to start another fight; however, I do feel that Jas needs a little support.

In any case...I conclude with: Congratulations Jas!!! I wish you much luck with those eggs--and those 07 studs of yours--and look forward to seeing what hatches! What did you breed her to, anyways? Yeah, I saw you didn't mention what kinda babies there'll be! I just hope you'll write a book and let us in on your secrets!! *poke*


EDIT: @__@ Holy cow that was longer than I thought!! >.>; Sorry guys..! (and gals! XD)

[JenH]

Awesome Jas!

I'm curious - what are the girls? And who you hooking them up with?

[Harold]

I need me some iddy biddy females snakes to breed.
Hopfully one I can get 3 maybe 4 eggs with a possibility of a lil egg boundness.
Can't wait to try it !!!!!!

[wolfy-hound]

Look. Harold is showing an example of why people leave sites. *shakes head*
Great post, Seneschal. That's kind of what I was trying to say, but I'm not very good with words.

[Petboy15]

I agree, great post! I bet Jas is breeding those little mojo's. How many did you make, like 50???

[joepythons]

I need me some iddy biddy females snakes to breed.
Hopfully one I can get 3 maybe 4 eggs with a possibility of a lil egg boundness.
Can't wait to try it !!!!!!

Now this is stuff we DONT need here .Did your mother have any kids that lived?