Help needed - Newbie trying to figure out environment, thawing food

[67King]

Gang, got Jasper, a Super Pastel Fire, for my son for Christmas. We've had him almost 2 weeks, now. The breeder (Chris at Slowcountry Balls - highly recommend!) fed him last on Friday the 14th. He has yet to eat for me (will elaborate). Took him to the vet for an initial checkup, but also to try to learn some things myself. According to the vet, who seemed quite knowledgeable, I'm actually doing most things right. After talking to her, I moved the CHE from the center to the hot side (do have under tank heating element on that side). But otherwise, she liked my temps, my environment, my night drop, dedicated feeding enclosure, etc.

At any rate, when I first set up the enclosure, I was battling between the perfect temperature range or the perfect humidity range. Couldn't get both. Still a little on the dry side, but now Jasper appears to be going into shed judging by his eyes (note again I'm a newbie, so I'm assuming from reading, rather than experience). I've noticed that every time I try to increase the humidity from either soaking up the spagham moss or misting the substrate (Aspen), the temperature drops. Makes sense, evaporative cooling and all. Well, now that I'm trying to jack up the humidity to over 60%, I put a saturated washcloth over his hot hide per Chris' recommendation. Great for the humidity! But the temperature has dropped even more.

So I'm not sure how to handle this. For now, I have a 10 gallon glass enclosure (I think, it is 20X12X12 inches). Heat tape on the bottom about 1/3rd of it. A 60Watt CHE above. The belly tape is on a thermostat, the CHE is just on a rheostat for now. I have most of the top covered with an insulation panel, there is about a 1/5" gap around the perimeter. So the question that comes to mind on that is am I venting too much air? It appears I have less area than the area from the Sticky thread about setting up a glass enclosure. If I block off more, I'm sure it will help the humidity, but how much is safe before I lose oxygen?

I am working to address this. I've ordered a 2 channel thermostat, and a 40Watt RHP from Reptile Basics, but I think they are slammed from the holidays, as my understanding is that they normally ship very, very quickly, but my prior order with them in early December a couple of weeks. So that will help. I have also been corresponding with Ali at AP Cages, and now that I've learned the divider is movable, and not either in the middle or out entirely, I'm going to order a T8 this week. Hopefully I'll get things all settled soon. But any help I can get until that comes in would be most appreciated. Again I think they only thing I can change right now is the size of the vents.

Right now I have flat black insulated posterboard stuff on the back and sides of the enclosure. I thought that would be good to help it stay warm, and make the space feel cozy, but now I am concerned that he is seeing reflections off of the glass. Any thoughts before I order a "scenery" type of cover to replace it?

On feeding. I think that I have been too cautious about bacteria and overheating. I ordered rat pups. I think I misunderstood Chris and he was feeding him fuzzies, rather than pups, as the guy weighs in at 140grams, so I think the pups are too big. No local stores have rat fuzzies, so I am stuck with medium mice. He has not taken food, yet. The first time, with the rat pup (before I had weighed him), he seemed very interested, kept smelling at it, and reared back as he was going to strike......but ultimately turned away. Second time, a little similar, but not as aggressive. Switched to a mouse. Almost no interest. That said.....I think that a couple of times, my food has been too cold. I had not realized that they sensed with heat (my 8 y/o son educated me on that one!). I have been slowly thawing either via fridge or cold water. Then hot water. I've read they need to be heated up quickly so bacteria do not grow, but they don't need to get too hot. At any rate, I have noticed that while they are warm on the outside, after a few minutes, they get cold, again. So......how do people heat up their food? A few minutes in hot water doesn't warm up them enough, unless when people have said that their water is much hotter, and they have a much larger bowl.

I konw these guys get easily stressed and it isn't unusual for them to not eat initially when they are moved. I'm not entirely worried, yet, but I really want to do everything I can to make it easy on Jasper until I can get that T8 set up. Any and all help appreciated. Can't link a non image link (dang Photobucket!), so here is a link to the picture on FB, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...8&l=e7ba606869

[Caali]

I really feel you. Only a few months ago, I went through the exact same problems. I'll tell you all the things I've learned:


Humidity & Heating

1. If you have problems with humidity I might suggest you don't use Aspen. Aspen is a good bedding for ball pythons but it is a horrible humidity killer. From my personal experience I'd like to recommend cypress mulch. It's really great at keeping the humidity at a good level.

2. Maybe move the water bowl to the hot side of terrarium. That will keep the humidity up as well.

3. Problems with the heating due to the humidity are a bit more troublesome. I have a wooden terrarium. So if my terrarium gets colder than it's supposed to (for some reason) I like to put a blanket on the top but that's not a good idea if your vents are on the top. For the time being you can put a hot water bottle on the glass at the hot side (from outside).
Maybe a heat mat will be easier in your case.



Feeding:

Two weeks are almost nothing. You have to give your little worm a bit of time to get used to it's new environment. Maybe he hasn't eaten because he is simply stressed. It can take some time until new ball pythons start eating. Ball pythons also tend to refuse food if they are in shed so don't worry too much.
I personally put the mice/rat in some water (warm to the touch) and let it thaw out for about 20 to 30 minutes. If I don't fell any hard or really cold spots anymore, I take some hot water (like 60 degrees Celsius) and put the rodent in there for about 3 to 5 minutes. After that the rodent is normally warm to the touch. Then I feed my ball python with it.
Is your ball python used to frozen rodents or did he eat live rodents before you got him?
Furthermore there are cases in which the ball pythons are drop eaters. So they only take the food when you leave in there with them for some time. Maybe if the fast continues you can try that.

[ckuhn003]

That's a lot of information to digest at once but the the two things that stick out to me our the dedicated feeding enclosure and using rat pups for a snake the size of yours. I would and many on here are going to recommend feeding in your BPs enclosure. Putting him in a dedicated feeding enclosure can add additional stress as well as possibly increase the risk of regurgitation when picking him up to put him back in his home. As for feeding rat pups, they are too big for your snake. For a 140 gram snake, I would stick to Rat Fuzzys or a small mouse (12-17grams).

Also, make sure you limit any holding of the snake until you have 2-3 successful feedings. You want to reduce any added stress while he/she settles into his new environment. This self control will pay off in the end. Good luck and welcome to the forum.

[SDA]

Night drops are not necessary for ball pythons.

Feed in the enclosure. Ball pythons are stressed easily and feeding outside the enclosure does nothing but possibly induce stress and can cause issues with digestion.

Unless you are in already a humid part of the country, aspen is horrendous for maintaining humidity. I would recommend eventually switching to coconut fiber or cypress mulch but for now allowing the snake to decompress is more important that constantly changing the enclosure. Simple things like changing the type of substrate can induce stress in a new ball python.

10 gallon is going to be a pain to get the temperature gradient adequate for a ball python. You can use it temporarily but if this is a juvenile or infant I would recommend a tub more. the concern about ventilation is not so much that you have to over think it. They do not need high ventilation like some arid species like rosy boas so blocking of up to 80% or more of the screen is perfectly fine.

What are you using to read temps and humidity? Analog dials are horrendous for accuracy so I would recommend getting something digital and an infrared temp gun for reading temps. Temps on hot side must be taken from the inside bottom of the tank above the heating pad, not the substrate. Cold side can be under the cool side hide so long as that area is proper temp, it's good.

For feeding, you feed what the breeder was feeding. Do not try and switch to another food source or size while acclimating the snake. If the breeder fed live, feed live. If mouse hopper, feed mouse hopper, not rat. Find what the breeder was feeding and start with that.

For thawing, place the rodent in a zip loc bag in the refrigerator over night then when day of feeding comes, warm in hot water (110 to 120 degrees F) for 15-20 minutes. A hopper should only take that amount of time to get warm.


Now I gave a ton of tips but you seem to have a good basic grasp on the husbandry, just need some fine tuning.


If you can post a picture here of the enclosure it will also help a ton.


Deborah, our most amazing admin, made a wonderful guide on how to deal with hatchlings. She does recommend aspen to start but in a tub that can handle humidity better. In a glass cage, aspen can make humidity control worse. Look over this guide to get an idea on how to best take care of a new ball python.

Again however it is critical you find out exactly what the breeder fed this snake and match it exactly to start. You can switch up later once it is established eating. I would do that before changing anything else. Also stop the feeding bin, feed in the enclosure with a dry rodent.


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...-hatchling-101

[Craiga 01453]

First off, welcome to the forum, youve come to a great place to learn. This is a great community of passionate reptile enthusiasts. Learn who the knowledgeable, experienced keepers are and soak up the info they share.

Ok...three things that stood out to me...

1) The seperate feeding tub:

I 100000% advocate for feeding snakes inside their enclosures. I have fed all of my snakes inside their enclosures for years. I have NEVER been tagged by any of my snakes inside their enclosures. I've been tagged, but outside while making handling errors that led to defensive strikes. I have also never had any impaction issues due to substrate.
Transferring the snake stresses the snake, which can lead to refusals. Then, if the snake does eat you need to move it back to the enclosure. This can A) increase the chance of you getting bit because the snake is in "feed mode" and B) potentially cause the snake to regurgitate it's meal due to the stress of being moved. You don't want either.

2) Simply using a higher wattage CHE should help fix your temps/humidity balance.

3) Please unplug your UTH until your thermostat arrives. The UTH can spike to dangerous temps when unregulated and can cause serious burns, or even death, to your snake. The UTH is there simply for a hot spot to aid with digestion and not for ambient temps. So, since your snake hasn't eaten, he won't miss it. It's just not worth the risk unregulated, even if the snake was eating.

Hope I helped...
Good luck, we're here to help with any questions you may have.

[Quahog]

I can give some advice on some of the food questions, and everyone has their own ritual of heating up their food for their beeps.

This is how I approach feeding Coco:

I take the F/T from the freezer, put it in a plastic bag, and run / soak it under tap water that's around 105 F (I measure temp with a temp gun, it's worth purchasing if you don't have one yet ). This thaws it out within 10-15 minutes. I'll feel the rat pups head and belly through the plastic bag since those take longer to warm up. When the head and belly warm to the touch, I take the rat pup into the room where Coco is. Then I'll take a hair dryer, on low, and heat the head of the rat for about 10 seconds, and so it's the hottest part of the food.

Coco recognizes when my steps to feed her. And she is conditioned to feeding, so when I tap her tub twice, she pops out of her hide (if she's hiding) and she'll snatch the rat pup immediately. If you try this method, make sure the water isn't above 115f-ish...any hotter and you risk the food item thawing so fast gas will build up in the belly...and when the snake takes the food...the belly can pop it also confuses the snake as where it needs to strike. Coco struck at the belly instead of the head since it was the hottest area....causing the belly to pop and Coco to go "OMG, what is this", with a mouth full of intestine Haha I had to warm up another rat pup, did it with lower water temps and she struck the head and gulped it down.

You can also thaw in a fridge and run under hot water, or thaw near the cage for a few hours to make it like thanksgiving day with the rat's scent filling the snake's home. Other's here will also have insight and tips for ya. Sorry I can't be more help on the environment .

[67King]

Thanks for all of the feedback. A few things:

1. I do have a thermostat on the UTH. It is a single channel, so I can't control the above tank heater. Have a member who has agreed to purchase it, and let me wait until the new one arrives, so I will never have that UTH on without it.
2. I've read pros/cons on in and out of enclosure. Jasper has already struck at us a couple of times, including at the vet. So that seems to reinforce the notion of a dedicated feeding enclosure. Ultimately, though, my vet recommends it (and FWIW, our "non-exotic" vet recommended this practice, and the practice has a snake specialist, who is who I went to). Her primary reasoning is to alleviate the risk of ingesting substrate.
3. Big thing I think I need to do is change the substrate. Ordered teh Aspen when I ordered by thermostat, scale, and other stuff a while back, since the most common stuff in pet stores here is cedar (the big no-no, IIRC). Vet recommended I think it was Eco Earth, which is coconut, so I'll run out and see if I can find some.
4. Chris did convert him to F/T food, so I'm not dealing with that, too.

There are a few consistencies I have read both on here, and between Care Sheets from different sources. One is that there are widely divergent opinions on how to care for these guys!!! (e.g. where to feed, when to start handling, night drops). The other is that each BP is different. At any rate, I mention the points above to hopefully alleviate any fears folks might have had this this was an impulse Christmas purchase. He started asking in August, so we've been looking and researching since then. Had hoped to make "rubber meeting the road" a little easier than it has been, but I'm also pretty Type-A, so I may be fretting unnecessarily.

The one thing that has me a little concerned about the food thing is that he DID seem interested in it when we tried to feed him the first time. Sniffed a LOT. Got coiled up looking like he was going to strike at it. But like I had said (or think I did?), it was a rat pup, rather than a fuzzy, so when I realized it was too big and bought smaller prey, I had thought that might have been why he refused.

[SDA]

If you are worried about ingesting substrate put a paper towel down during feeding. Your vet might be an exotic specialist but I doubt they know ball pythons. I have the most amazing reptile vet but he doesn't know green tree pythons. There is zero benefit from external enclosure feeding and if you look throughout this forum I would bet you find it that everyone feeds in enclosure for ball pythons specifically. I highly doubt anyone not a troll would suggest here feeding in a separate tub for ball pythons. the choice is ultimately up to you but on this forum alone there are thousands of ball pythons feeding in enclosures without issue and I think that speaks for itself.

[Starscream]

I can vouch for feeding in the enclosure, with loose substrate to boot.

Cage aggression is also a myth; they don't associate their enclosure with feeding. The attempts at striking are probably because the snake is trying to defend itself -- beyond eating, striking is a means to deter predators. Once they settle in and have eaten a few times, you can try short, frequent sessions to get your BP used to handling. They'll hopefully mellow out with time.

[Craiga 01453]

Ok, wasn't aware of the Tstat. All set there.

I mean NO disrespect to the vet, however, the vast majority of vets, even exotics specialists, know what they've read in books. Most are not actual keepers and have no hands on experience.
There is absolutely ZERO benefit to feeding in a separate enclosure. Substrate ingestion is a very minor concern. Nobody cleans their food in the wild and they are made to digest fur and bone. If you're concerned about substrate ingestion, lay a piece of cardboard down inside the enclosure a few hours before scheduled feeding.

Please know I'm not trying to be argumentative, just sharing my experience, as well as that of others with decades of experience with thousands of snakes.