Unexplained Passing.....Any Thoughts??

[SDA]

I have two of these now and recommend them above any other device. You stick the remote probe in the tub/tank and it takes about 30-45 minutes when first dropped in to acclimate then it is super accurate

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M252EWA

[Godzilla78]

If it was poor husbandry, don’t beat yourself up! I find husbandry to be a huge amount of work, trying to keep a Tropical African reptile in temperate North America!
I have spent a fortune manipulating and monitoring temperature, humidity and housing security. And I STILL get concerned about their health and living standards.


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[zina10]

Well, he's the only one of my 4 snakes to have the shedding issue and all temps are checked with a temp gun, water is provided in one of those stone corner bowls, bedding varies between pine shavings and paper towels, which ever I have the most of at the time. Cage was a 30 gallon. He was fed outside of cage to avoid eating any subrate. Vet also mentioned parasites as a potential cause but never took a fecal to my knowledge. Bath water was also always checked with temp gun too. He didn't start out as a bad eater either, nor did he totally have shed issues in the beginning (He did have a handful of good sheds). We did move from Alabma to West Virginia and shortly before that is when he began to show signs of being picky (wouldn't eat rats and mice had to be white. Wouldn't touch a colored mouse for some reason.) Could the move, roughly a year and half into owning him, have effected him in some way? I don't have a humidity gauge of any kind at the moment, but it is notably humid in the room and they do get misted. It's just baffling that she didn't see anything. I mean if it was husbandry related, wouldn't his body have shown visible signs of some kind of stress or immune problems? Like if he was too hot or cold or dehydrated, wouldn't his organs/body have been deformed/shown some signs or this?? I mean, maybe not, I'm no vet or expert, but I would think something would have been visible.

Husbandry not being spot on may not show in a necropsy. Unless the snake was grossly neglected, which it wasn't. It sounds to me like he simply wasn't a very healthy or thriving snake, with his ongoing issues. As to why? There aren't always good answers. He was probably smaller then average, perhaps somewhat "stunted". But not something very obvious to a vet.

It sounds as if you will not get any satisfying answers through the necropsy, I'm afraid

Ball Pythons stress easy. Stress is bad for health. We do know that much. Whether that was a factor in his death is you will probably not find out for sure, though.

How did you heat the enclosure ? Many people use heat lamps or ceramic heat emitters for glass tanks. They dry the air in the tank out completely, regardless of the humidity in the room. Pine shavings or paper also do not hold any humidity and easily mold if kept "wet" (misted). Substrates such as that work better if you can keep the humidity up without constant misting. (like in a tub)

I believe that may have something to do with the shedding issues. Even if the other snakes do better, some are just not as robust as others or as forgiving with less then ideal parameters.

Changing substrates often adds to stress. Ball Pythons don't like changes in routine. It "can" stress them. Also, paper or pine is quite different from one another. One can have more dust and a thicker layer over a heat source then the other. I would try to stick with one method and adjust husbandry (heat etc) to that method.

Removing the snake to another container to eat can also add stress. Again, some do fine with it. Others...not so much. In the wild a snake is most vulnerable while eating. It cannot defend itself during that time and it cannot get away from danger. Most BP want to feel "safe" before they will eat. Moving them can make the more shy ones reluctant to eat. Its also not ideal to handle one right after eating, which you have to do to move them back into their enclosure.

I am not meaning to criticize you or your snake keeping, please understand that. Its simply that Ball Pythons are shy snakes that often stress easy. And some husbandry methods stress more then others. Some snakes will be fine with that, others not. Whether that factored into his death, you may never know, though.

IBD kills fast (in Ball Pythons). Most other fatal diseases have definite symptoms. Such as severe respiratory issues, which you would have noticed before passing. There seems no obvious deformed organs or heart failure, as the vet would have seen during necropsy. There didn't seem to be a obvious infection or "wounds" to the snake. So..honestly, "I" would go with "weak, failing to thrive". Unless something happened during that last bath. Perhaps accidental breathing in of water? Not sure if that can happen with a snake. Can happen with most other animals and it would explain death a few hours later, as drowning can happen hours after being in the water. Not sure if the vet would have gone so far as to check for water in the lungs, or if that would even be obvious..

Again, sorry for your loss.

[pentacle_400]

Sorry to reply again, but it won't let me edit this, but he also did have sufficently sized wooden hide in his tank. Also no trouble passing stools. No prolapse issues, straining, nor dry urates.

[zina10]

Some interesting reading.

I have NO idea if this is even possible in snakes. But they have lungs like other animals and they have a breathing tube and nostrils. Normally, when in the water, we automatically DON'T breathe, but perhaps he was startled and got water in his lungs or ???

"Delayed drowning, sometimes called secondary drowning, is a bit different. Water gets into the lungs in small amounts — not enough to disable breathing right away. Instead, it sits there and inhibits the lungs' ability to oxygenate blood. From there, the victim starts to have more and more trouble breathing over the course of several hours."

ps. I know, all this is a "long" shot, but with this snake being a problem child to begin with, it may have been weaker, and it may have literally inhaled a bit of water. Would explain the thrashing and subsequent passing away...perhaps a question for the vet?

[pentacle_400]

Well, we do use heat lamps, but the room is not staying warm enough so we had been using an electric heater on low to keep the room from freezing. I never noticed any mold growth, which I had read before using pine shaving that that is a possibility. I have not used paper towels in some time though. What substrate do you recommend then for the others? I don't have any other balls though. He was our only one. I have a king snake, corn, and red tail now. And in comparison to other balls I have seen, he was always MUCH smaller than his same aged counter parts. I always found that troubling, but just assumed him to be the "runt" of his clutch. I didn't really think that was a huge issue as many animals can be smaller than their counterparts, but I guess that maybe could have meant something was not right from the start. And she did specifially mention his lungs looked fine as I had told her about the ri he had once. I also told her that when we went to put him in the Ziploc bad that his head tipped down and liquid had come out. It wasn't discolored or thick. Seems to be water. She stated he could have drank not long before death, but never said that she found water in his lungs. He did die partially wrapped around his water dish with his head under him. I know he died in that position as his blood pooled into his upper portion, causing his mouth to appear bruised. We also worry he could have broken his neck or something on his own body or water dish, but she never mentioned finding any broken bones, which I assume she would have examined those.

[pentacle_400]

I'll indeed ask her about that! Thank you! Although this says "hours" after inhaling it, and his bath was about a week or two before his death. But they probably don't breathe as heavily or as often as other animals since they are sneaky hunter types that usually have to breathe slower and with stealth, so perhaps that still might be a theory?

[pentacle_400]

I have two of these now and recommend them above any other device. You stick the remote probe in the tub/tank and it takes about 30-45 minutes when first dropped in to acclimate then it is super accurate

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M252EWA

Just saw this reply! Thank you! I'll be ordering 4 of these! (I have a bearded dragon too, so won't hurt to put one in her tank as well!)

[Godzilla78]

Well, we do use heat lamps, but the room is not staying warm enough so we had been using an electric heater on low to keep the room from freezing. I never noticed any mold growth, which I had read before using pine shaving that that is a possibility. I have not used paper towels in some time though. What substrate do you recommend then for the others? I don't have any other balls though. He was our only one. I have a king snake, corn, and red tail now. And in comparison to other balls I have seen, he was always MUCH smaller than his same aged counter parts. I always found that troubling, but just assumed him to be the "runt" of his clutch. I didn't really think that was a huge issue as many animals can be smaller than their counterparts, but I guess that maybe could have meant something was not right from the start. And she did specifially mention his lungs looked fine as I had told her about the ri he had once. I also told her that when we went to put him in the Ziploc bad that his head tipped down and liquid had come out. It wasn't discolored or thick. Seems to be water. She stated he could have drank not long before death, but never said that she found water in his lungs. He did die partially wrapped around his water dish with his head under him. I know he died in that position as his blood pooled into his upper portion, causing his mouth to appear bruised. We also worry he could have broken his neck or something on his own body or water dish, but she never mentioned finding any broken bones, which I assume she would have examined those.

Wait a minute, you used PINE for substrate, I thought that was toxic. You may have your answer right there.
The snake was accidentally poisoned.

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[SDA]

Pine is only toxic untreated. Treated aka kiln dried pine is no more toxic than aspen shavings. They don't sell untreated pine shavings anymore for animals.

Edit: that being said if they did somehow use fresh untreated pine shavings then they did put their animal at risk.