Safe fish for reptiles

[Oxylepy]

Okay, so at the moment I've added a few rosy minnows to my mangrove monitor's water. Now, when I go full on adult enclosure part of this is going to involve a very large water area (probably 6'x3', and maybe 8-12" deep). I intend to stock this with fish which should hopefully form a successful breeding population (fry get eaten, sure, but at the end of the day if the monitor eats 12 fish a month, and 12-20 fry survive, I'm exactly where I want to be).

Environment: Freshwater, about 76-78 degrees, well filtered.

So that leads to what kind of fish can survive, but what kind of fish to get is another question. I already know that Guppies, Platies, and Minnows are fine, and are decent breeders. Anything else?

I may consider a few feeder goldfish, but they won't be big enough to breed, and obviously there won't be many of them as a diet rich in goldfish is apparently a problem for a lot of animals.

Also, any ideas on non-fish to stock? Shrimp which will readily breed, freshwater snails which will be able to breed, etc?

[bcr229]

Minnows contain thiaminase and should not be used as feeder fish.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume...thiaminase.htm

[Oxylepy]

Thanks. I've actually been reading up heavily on it and the rest of my fish options (platies and guppies) are fine.

I've also noticed that the concern about thiaminase isn't nearly as bad as I was lead to believe in the first place. Considering the fish (of which minnows will probably remain) only make up a minor part of the diet, with rats and insects making up the larger portion. As long as thiaminase containing organisms are much lower than ones which don't contain it, it should be fine and I don't even need to worry about "safe" fish.

In other words, platies and guppies will be the primary fish in there, and between rats and roaches, it leaves the rosy reds as a very minor worry

[distaff]

I've read that guppies and platys are safe, as well as something called, silver shiners.

Is this reptile the right size to eat earth worms? The "Red Wiggler" compost worm, Eisenea foteida (spell?) is reported to secrete a toxic substance, but the night crawler type worms that come up on side walks after a rain storm, reportedly are safe.

My understanding is that the African night crawler Eudrilus eugenae, the Alabama jumper Amythus gracilus, and the Blue worm Berionyx excautus are also safe to feed, avail. on line for purchase, and easy to cultivate in a bin. I'll be ordering some soon - plans are for two or three garters this spring/summer.

[Oxylepy]

My substrate has all kinds of things like worms in there, if it decides to eat them. My list of fish now has black mollies and swordtails in it for fish without thiaminase.

Are you sure about silver shiners? I know a lot of cyprinidae have the enzyme. And unless you are certain with a species, you should probably assume eveything has them.

Again, a lot of the issue is using them as primary food sources, and even the linked article says to just keep them bellow 20% of the diet.

One of the things that really kills me with feeders is not being able to get what I'm looking for. African Millipedes are like $100 dollars each with no gender choices available. Land Snails of just about any type aren't available or are too small. Large crickets are potentially dangerous (bites). Ultimately few and far between are decent feeders, and personally I don't really feel comfortable without a solid 5 food sources for my lizards, unless they are obligate in the wild.

I have crickets living with my savannah and my mangrove for the time being. They ended up forming a stable breeding population with my savannah, and haven't caused any bite issues in the last year they've been in there (I feed them). But while pill bugs and tiny millipedes would be fine for an adult enclosure for upkeep, the crickets are waaaay too good at breeding to be maintained with an animal that will ignore them.

I'm starting to consider lizards as potential habitat food, at least for the mangrove. But I'd need to find an easy species to work with

[distaff]

"...something called silver shiners." You're right; I got it wrong. Silversides.

This, from the care sheet over at Thamnopsis.com.:
Frozen Thawed Fish - this is by far a better option when feeding fish to your snakes. Be sure to use a thiaminase free source. Steer clear of catfish and carp for this reason. Commonly used types include silversides, salmon, trout, and tilapia. Silversides are safe to use and can be purchased frozen from pet stores and sometimes even as people food at grocery stores in the seafood section. They are ideal because they are a whole-bodied food instead of just strips of flesh. If strips of large fish are used it's advisable to supplement with calcium because there is no bone matter.

(hope it is ok to copy/paste an entire paragraph.)

Can your monitor eat anoles, or morning gekos? I'm suggesting them just because, based on care sheets, they seem fairly easy to keep, and possibly prolific enough for a colony to supply an occasional feeder.

I used to raise silk worms for spinning, and while they are seasonal, and you NEED a mulberry tree, they are fun and easy to maintain. They also get fairly big by the end of the caterpillar stage, and very prolific year over year. I ended up feeding the majority to my chickens the last year I kept them, there were just FAR, FAR too many to grow out.

[Oxylepy]

I'm considering one or both. At a full length of 3-4' of which 14-19" is head and torso, a lizard of 8" or less should be fine.

The optimal lizard long term would be able to survive living with the mangrove. At the moment I am highly considering getting an anole to throw in with my savannah. It should be too small to eat the anole, and the anole should help with the crickets for the time being provided it doesn't get stressed to death.

I'll have to consider if the gecko will be a better long term option for my mangrove monitor. Being smaller, it may be better able to survive and thrive in there with it. Although if it eats bugs I may need to do the stupid cricket thing again in the adult enclosure.

[Oxylepy]

Now lets expand this topic. I have a total of 4 species of safe fish: Guppies, Mollies, Platies, and Swordtails. They are all regretably pretty small prey items so the reward for catching one is pretty low, but it's still there...

Silversides, regrettably, aren't very good for aquaria because they are pretty easily stressed, so if I buy them as food, it'll be tong feeding.

We now have Anoles and Common House Geckos as possible feeders. Not sure how well they will survive in the habitat, buuuuut I can always house them seperately and breed them. I'll need to do some research, but hopefully I can just house them in large sterilite tubs (which are my go-to tubs). I'm thinking the geckos will work best because they are a Pacific species.

On insects my go-to are definitely madagascar hissers.

Now for expanding it....

What else to keep for feeders?

Does anyone know of a safe species of aquatic freshwater snail?

Does anyone know of any safe Frogs or Toads?

[distaff]

Don't know about frogs and toads. Obviously the dart frogs are out, but then again, the toxins are reportedly synthesized only in their natural habitat (IIRC, some kind of ant?). Maybe go with a red eye tree frog, or something like that. Based on a video I recently watched, they do seem to lay a lot of eggs. As far as I know, most toads are toxic to eat, even though they aren't brightly coloured. Not sure how they reproduce. I've only seen toads in dry environments.

If you aren't already familiar with her, Rachael O'Leary's (spell?) site might have info. useful to you on the fresh water snails. I know she does the mystery snails, and assassin snails. She also sells snails. She has done several good YouTube posts on aquarium snails. I've never heard anything about toxicity with common snails. I've tried to raise them more than once, but can't seem to keep the things alive for long.

Can the monitor eat eggs? Quail eggs are small, and finch eggs are about dime sized. Even our local doves lay tiny eggs. Maybe what you need is an aviary of society finches.

[Oxylepy]

Alright soooooo.

Yes they eat eggs, so I can probably offer it chicken eggs (from someone I know who raises chickens), and for the time being smaller animal eggs.

Also, I found out I can keep anoles and geckos together, so I'll just keep both. And actually I have 4 geckos and an anole in with my savannah monitor at the moment. Hopefully they'll cut down the cricket population (I've been feeding my savannah a lot of rats recently and the cricket population isn't low enough). If they survive they will earn my respect and praise (becoming the future geckos and anole for their own setup if they ever eliminate the crickets).