Potentially dying ball python?

[museumemployee]

Hi everyone-- I work as a reptile handler at a museum and I was recently promoted to the animal caretaker. We have several ball pythons and extensive weight records for them for each month.

I recently weighed one of our balls and started reviewing their records and discovered that all three of them have been losing weight steadily for the last year or two.

We have one ball named Monte who was born in 1991 who weighed 2.81 kg in September of 2012, was 2.61 kg in May of 2013 and was down to 2.02 kg just this last month. We also have extensive records of when she eats and what she eats and for the past year and a half she has not refused any of her mice. We feed her one large mouse (frozen and thawed) a week. We have access to an exotic animal vet through the museum and she stops by regularly, but I'm a bit wary of her. Another employee noted that one of our corn snakes had also been losing weight at the same pace as the ball pythons and the vet recommended exploratory surgery (which she did in front of a class, so my suspicion is that she pushed the surgery so her class could see it). Unsurprisingly, the corn snake died after the surgery and I'm worried she might push for similar, uneeded surgeries for the balls. My supervisor mentioned that she thinks Monte might just be getting close to the end of her lifespan. Her color seems to be about what it normally is. Her scales in general do seem a little rougher and less smooth and she's about as lethargic and calm as she's been for the last two years that I've worked with her. Does this match the description of a snake that's just aging?

The other two balls have lost weight as well. Cuddles has gone from 1.93 kg a year ago to 1.61 this past month (no change in appetite and same feeding schedule as the other balls) and Bruce has gone from 1.65 to 1.34 kg. Their lengths have not changed and they are adults, although we do not know their specific ages (ballpark range puts Cuddles at about 10-15 years old and Bruce at 5-8-- both are male). Are we just not feeding them enough? Should I get the vet in here to check for parasites? We quarantine all of our new animals and get several neg fecal samples before we move them into our reptile room so I'd be surprised to find out that they had parasites and I would have no idea where they got them from.

The animals are show animals and get handled very often and treated very well, so I don't think it's a stress issue as they've had periods where their weight has been the same and they were used in the same amount and types of shows. Any ideas?

Further info: We have extensive behavioral, temperature and humidity data for them as well. They have a mat, a hide and a water bowl big enough to soak in as well as a warm spot and a cool spot in each of their habitats and they've been in those same habitats for years in proper temp and humidity ranges. There basically haven't been any major changes in anything for the past several years so I'm at a loss as to what is causing the weight loss as full grown adults with no dietary changes.

[Freakie_frog]

Hi everyone-- I work as a reptile handler at a museum and I was recently promoted to the animal caretaker. We have several ball pythons and extensive weight records for them for each month.

I recently weighed one of our balls and started reviewing their records and discovered that all three of them have been losing weight steadily for the last year or two.

We have one ball named Monte who was born in 1991 who weighed 2.81 kg in September of 2012, was 2.61 kg in May of 2013 and was down to 2.02 kg just this last month. We also have extensive records of when she eats and what she eats and for the past year and a half she has not refused any of her mice. We feed her one large mouse (frozen and thawed) a week. We have access to an exotic animal vet through the museum and she stops by regularly, but I'm a bit wary of her. Another employee noted that one of our corn snakes had also been losing weight at the same pace as the ball pythons and the vet recommended exploratory surgery (which she did in front of a class, so my suspicion is that she pushed the surgery so her class could see it). Unsurprisingly, the corn snake died after the surgery and I'm worried she might push for similar, uneeded surgeries for the balls. My supervisor mentioned that she thinks Monte might just be getting close to the end of her lifespan. Her color seems to be about what it normally is. Her scales in general do seem a little rougher and less smooth and she's about as lethargic and calm as she's been for the last two years that I've worked with her. Does this match the description of a snake that's just aging?

The other two balls have lost weight as well. Cuddles has gone from 1.93 kg a year ago to 1.61 this past month (no change in appetite and same feeding schedule as the other balls) and Bruce has gone from 1.65 to 1.34 kg. Their lengths have not changed and they are adults, although we do not know their specific ages (ballpark range puts Cuddles at about 10-15 years old and Bruce at 5-8-- both are male). Are we just not feeding them enough? Should I get the vet in here to check for parasites? We quarantine all of our new animals and get several neg fecal samples before we move them into our reptile room so I'd be surprised to find out that they had parasites and I would have no idea where they got them from.

The animals are show animals and get handled very often and treated very well, so I don't think it's a stress issue as they've had periods where their weight has been the same and they were used in the same amount and types of shows. Any ideas?

See the highlighted above. That is way WAY to small for a snake that size. That size snake should be eating at least a small to med rat.

[jdhutton2000]

Move up to small and medium rats!

Not enough nutrition in mouse. Mouse is good for a corn, but not BP! I imagine your setups are good, but posting that as well could help. Stress could be causing the weight loss, but not eating would show if stressed.

I would start upping their food to rats and please post specifics on habitats.

[museumemployee]

I posted a little about their habitats. They are stored in racks because we have a large number of snakes.

The museum is part of a college campus and we get our mice from the labs on campus, and unfortunately we don't have access to rats. Would two large mice a week work instead or should we really try to just feed them one med/small rat a week?

We have some other snakes that are the same size that have the same diet and they haven't lost any weight so I just wasn't sure if they were getting enough.

EDIT: Ah, just saw the bit about the nutrition being good for corns vs balls. Makes sense.

[Freakie_frog]

I posted a little about their habitats. They are stored in racks because we have a large number of snakes.

The museum is part of a college campus and we get our mice from the labs on campus, and unfortunately we don't have access to rats. Would two large mice a week work instead or should we really try to just feed them one med/small rat a week?

One rat a week is fine but mice it would take 4+ a week to get the right amount of intake. You might try and get some F/T rats if you don't have access to live.

[museumemployee]

I'll have to call our "mouse dealer" and see if he can get us some F/T rats as well as mice. We don't feed our snakes live mice since they're show snakes and get touched a lot, so F/T rats are a must.

Thanks for the help guys-- I'll up their intake for sure.

[Freakie_frog]

I'll have to call our "mouse dealer" and see if he can get us some F/T rats as well as mice. We don't feed our snakes live mice since they're show snakes and get touched a lot, so F/T rats are a must.

Thanks for the help guys-- I'll up their intake for sure.

Let us know how it goes and if you have any other questions

[jdhutton2000]

www.micedirect.com

Tell management you need a dedicated deep freeze for the snake department... can get a year supply of rats for those guys for under $250 a year.

$500 first year, for rats and freezer, and $250 each following year for rats , and problem solved.

[museumemployee]

Hah, that website makes me laugh using money as a scale of reference. Looking at the pics though, we do feed them jumbo adult mice, which seem just slightly smaller than small rats. Regardless, I'm still going to make an effort to bump them up to rats.

The thing is that we get our mice for free, and with so many animals (including a giant tortoise that eats a ridiculous amount of food) it gets expensive to feed them, so if we can get them for free, we really try to do that. Thanks for the link though-- that may come in handy.

[jdhutton2000]

Good luck man! Seriously let us know how everything goes.

Another thing you can try is look for local rat breeders, they can "donate" rats to a museum and claim it on their takes as donations.

Might get some local breeders to buy off on it for the publicity.

Local breeders sale them dirt cheap, just have to verify quality, no mites or parasites.

As far as "end of their life span".. BP's kept in captivity, unlike many other captive species, live longer than in wild. Should, with proper care reach 30-40 years old.

Good luck!