Not thrilled with LLL Reptile.

[RobNJ]

(yes, you are placing blame) on Mike.

...no blame was placed whatsoever...Mike was in the right to post his experience. Believe it or not, although I don't post on here 10+ x's a day, I actually know what I'm talking about some of the time. Mike only had to own his own words...when I took note of "something" that the snake may have had, he said I was mixing words....which I clearly was not. Let's put a brief summary on this...


"I bought a Fla king snake from LLL at a show. I had it for 10 days, it shed, it fed, and then it died. I contacted LLL, and they told me guarantees are only for 24 hours. Still, they offered me credit towards a future purchase(when all I wanted was a refund). Since I don't want another animal from LLL, and they won't refund me, I will not pursue this any further. I understand business is business."

^^That is an awesome summary, no blame on Mike whatsoever, and then we get to here...

"By the way, I think the snake died because it had a disease/infection, and I think there other animals may be infected, so I don't want another one from them, and now am worried about my collection, but I won't get a necropsy to see if it's anything potentially harmful"

Yeah, not so good there....and Kodie, you brought up the BOI before...if you think the last part of Mike's story would fly there you obviously aren't too familiar with it.

I like Mike, and I can understand how he's feeling, but potentially harmful speculation has no place here.

And ColeSlaw, I am aware that the likelihood of anything that may or may not be transmitting from a king snake to ball pythons is unlikely. But, unless it is discussed with LLL, and the animal Mike got from them was found to be ill with something that could not have possibly happened while in Mike's possession, how do you know there is no way they would assist with or cover the costs of a necropsy. Sounds like more nonsensical speculation if you ask me....

[Coleslaw007]

Well, without prior written agreement from LLL that they would reimburse for the cost of a necropsy I'd say it's a pretty safe bet being as they won't refund $50. This is not factoring in the very real possibility that there may not be any qualified vets in his area, that they may not be able to do much with so small a snake, and that Mike did state that he does not have the funds available upfront.

Also, their* and he never once said he thinks that THEIR other animals may have something, but if this one died suddenly it IS possible. Nor did he say he is currently worried about his collection. Why get snakes from someone with snakes of questionable health in your own experience? Not to mention the countless other BOI threads on snakes from LLL dying.

You are making this out to be something much more than it is.

[Mike41793]

"By the way, I think the snake died because it had a disease/infection, and I think there other animals may be infected, so I don't want another one from them, and now am worried about my collection, but I won't get a necropsy to see if it's anything potentially harmful"

I did not say any of that in my OP. After it seemed like LLL was placing the blame on me and you kept pursuing it, that's when I finally said that other stuff. I wasn't going to mention it tho bc I wasn't overly worried about trashing LLL bc it wasn't a major concern. And like I already said before, by me saying "well I really don't think it was my fault..." isn't that me passively aggressively saying that I think that it was something on their end? It's funny how no one else took what I said like you did......... But I guess that's why I'm nominating you for the award, not them!

Mods feel free to lock the thread. I promise I won't be making anymore anytime soon.

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[sho220]

It was George Bush's fault...

[RobNJ]

After it seemed like LLL was placing the blame on me and you kept pursuing it, that's when I finally said that other stuff.

Defensive much Mike? So, you spew garbage speculation as a defense mechanism when you feel like you are getting blamed for something, when in fact, nobody is really blaming you? Real classy, that'll get you far...

It's funny how no one else took what I said like you did.........

Actually, if you go not too far back, I think Skip concurred that nothing I was saying was unreasonable. Sorry I don't side with people based on massive post counts...

[Skiploder]

I'll post this and then I'm done trying to tell you what to do.

Mike, one of two things happened here. I'm discounting husbandry errors because king snakes are damn near bullet proof and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

1. The snake was born with a defect.
2. The snake had some sort of pathogen.

The problem with business models that solicit buying whole lots of animals from a wide audience is several fold. First and foremost when you add a snake from such a vendor to your collection, you have no idea how many snakes from different sources it has been exposed to. Secondly, you may not know who produced the animal. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now if the snake was born with a defect and coincidentally died just after you purchased it, then all a necropsy will do is give you piece of mind.

But if it didn't, well, then you got a whole new set of worries.

Regardless of what some people suppose, there are a whole host of ophidian diseases that can jump from colubrid to boa, from elapid to viper and so on and so on. OPMV, crypto, viral meningitis and yes, even IBD. IBD has been potentially indicated in snakes other than boids - it is not likely that this is the problem, but it is important to realize it is a possibility.

If your vet is charging you $450 for a necropsy, then I get why you are hesitant to do it for a $45 snake. But you are essentially doing it for every snake in your collection.

LLL Reptile has a history laid open on the BOI of selling sick and sometimes parasitized animals to people. In the end, LLL Reptile usually does the right thing, but only after things have been brought to the general public and the heat gets turned up a bit. Yes I understand that their TOS does not cover your time span and I understand that you cannot force them to allay all your fears and concerns.

But, you can make sure that other people understand exactly what happened here and can make better informed decisions next time.

Since you have a valid concern, and LLL SHOULD have a valid concern (since that animal was exposed to their animals) then they should be open to finding out what that little snake died from.

First things first: ask LLL for the history of they snake. Did they produce it in house? Did they buy it from someone else? If so, who and when. If not, ask for all of the husbandry records. If they refuse to provide this information, let the snake community know. I supply a complete history of a every animal I sell on an excel spreadsheet if asked.

If you still do not have a warm fuzzy, then it is not unreasonable for you to approach LLL about a necropsy. Again, if they refuse, post that here.

The idea is to make sure every one who does business with them understands that every time you add an animal you are putting your other animals at risk and any vendor who sells animals that they do not properly acclimate, or flip also puts your animals at risk.

It's no skin of my back if you don't get a necropsy, but you are no dummy and I know that you realize that this is about more than a relatively inexpensive animal. This is about a vendor who pretty much told you to shove off until you posted here and now wants to discuss the issue further. Realize that it is their bests interests to make you happy.

[Kodieh]

...no blame was placed whatsoever...Mike was in the right to post his experience. Believe it or not, although I don't post on here 10+ x's a day, I actually know what I'm talking about some of the time. Mike only had to own his own words...when I took note of "something" that the snake may have had, he said I was mixing words....which I clearly was not. Let's put a brief summary on this...


"I bought a Fla king snake from LLL at a show. I had it for 10 days, it shed, it fed, and then it died. I contacted LLL, and they told me guarantees are only for 24 hours. Still, they offered me credit towards a future purchase(when all I wanted was a refund). Since I don't want another animal from LLL, and they won't refund me, I will not pursue this any further. I understand business is business."

^^That is an awesome summary, no blame on Mike whatsoever, and then we get to here...

"By the way, I think the snake died because it had a disease/infection, and I think there other animals may be infected, so I don't want another one from them, and now am worried about my collection, but I won't get a necropsy to see if it's anything potentially harmful"

Yeah, not so good there....and Kodie, you brought up the BOI before...if you think the last part of Mike's story would fly there you obviously aren't too familiar with it.

I like Mike, and I can understand how he's feeling, but potentially harmful speculation has no place here.

And ColeSlaw, I am aware that the likelihood of anything that may or may not be transmitting from a king snake to ball pythons is unlikely. But, unless it is discussed with LLL, and the animal Mike got from them was found to be ill with something that could not have possibly happened while in Mike's possession, how do you know there is no way they would assist with or cover the costs of a necropsy. Sounds like more nonsensical speculation if you ask me....

I see a lot of letters strung together, but you have yet to say anything.

My last post was as neutral as it gets, except for the fact that you understand inferences in other people's post but not your own.

If it's not LLL (if they bred it) or the people they are flipping it from, then obviously you think Mike did something wrong.

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[Mike41793]

Defensive much Mike? So, you spew garbage speculation as a defense mechanism when you feel like you are getting blamed for something, when in fact, nobody is really blaming you? Real classy, that'll get you far...



Actually, if you go not too far back, I think Skip concurred that nothing I was saying was unreasonable. Sorry I don't side with people based on massive post counts...

I literally mentioned it as gently as I could after I was pushed to. I wouldn't even call it an accusation. All I said was "my PERSONAL OPINON is this and that's why I don't want another animal from them..." It's a hunch, a feeling, an intuition. That's all. Not an accusation. Like "hey I think this is a real possibility so that's why I don't want another animal from them" I have the personal opinion that I really think you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, it's my OPINION. This thread got completely twisted because of you Rob.

That wasn't my point at all but I figured you'd take that stance. My point is you're the only one who feels I was accusing LLL of something.

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[Coleslaw007]

This is now two days from the fact. I'm fairly certain the body is already gone and/ or no longer a candidate for autopsy.

[MarkS]

Time to cool this down a bit, things are getting a little heated and personal. Closing this thread temporarily.

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Okay, I've opened it up again, lets try to keep the discussion a little more civil.