The real worth of an RHP?

[MarkS]

Seriously Kitedemon???? Again you are going to flat out call me a liar???We had this discussion a while ago and it seems you still have the same closed mind you did back then!!!! Did you ever call Bob and talk to him like I suggested or are you still basing your facts of the same little failed experiment you did last year when you tried to put a RHP in a 12" tall box and say " it doesn't work!" Point in fact... you are not here to measure my set up and do tests on MY cage so you can not truly say that I am wrong. You are merely stating your opinion and calling me a liar based on opinion NOT fact!!! I will Not spend another second arguing this with you! You have shown in the past to give bad info to people AND not thoroughly read members posts fully! I suggest to any members out there to take your advice with a grain out salt and like Forest Gump.....Thats all I got to say about that!!

Wait a minute here... Where did he call you a liar???? He's simply stating his opinion which just happens to be different from your own. I've been in this hobby long enough to know that there are many many ways of doing the same thing and all of them are right as long as it benefits the animals. Believe me there have been many times I've disagreed with kitedemon on care issues, maybe even more then a few, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. It just means that his ideas don't work well with the way I prefer to do things... BUT I DO listen to what he has to say. You never know when or where you can learn something new as long as you keep an open mind... Yes he can be very opinionated in his view points but I believe he just cares deeply for his animals and wants what is best for yours as well. He has strong opinions about what is right but may fail to see that there are other ways that can work just as well. But hey, we're all just human beings here... (ie: we're all fallible)

Just remember, if your animals are thriving and looking good, then whatever you are doing is RIGHT. If they're not doing as well as you would like, then listen to another viewpoint.

[norwegn113]

Wait a minute here... Where did he call you a liar???? He's simply stating his opinion which just happens to be different from your own. I've been in this hobby long enough to know that there are many many ways of doing the same thing and all of them are right as long as it benefits the animals. Believe me there have been many times I've disagreed with kitedemon on care issues, maybe even more then a few, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. It just means that his ideas don't work well with the way I prefer to do things... BUT I DO listen to what he has to say. You never know when or where you can learn something new as long as you keep an open mind... Yes he can be very opinionated in his view points but I believe he just cares deeply for his animals and wants what is best for yours as well. He has strong opinions about what is right but may fail to see that there are other ways that can work just as well. But hey, we're all just human beings here... (ie: we're all fallible)

Just remember, if your animals are thriving and looking good, then whatever you are doing is RIGHT. If they're not doing as well as you would like, then listen to another viewpoint.

Marks, my reference to him calling me a liar is he specifically calls me out by name and then says publicly that what I am saying is impossible! In my opinion that is him calling me a liar. My statements are based on a real life system that I use daily. I am not just making wild accusations that I cant back up. I too only want whats best for the animals as well. The last thing I would ever want to do is give bad advice that would harm an animal. You know I realize that Kitedemon deals with measuring heat in his everyday job I will not discredit that but that may not be the best thing either because there is a point where you become too passionate about what you do and your opinion becomes bias. All I ask is that he stops calling me out by name in front of other users and saying that my statements are wrong. It makes me look like I am giving false info to other people. Marks, this has been going on with him this way since last December and it really starting to wear on me! I am not a scientist and may not be able to explain why my cages are working well but the fact remains that they provide a good environment that my animals are thriving in and to me that's the real proof not some scientific theories.

[norwegn113]

Kite, I am not arguing the fact that my cage IS hotter at the top then the bottom. My RHP is mounted to the top of the cage , so obviously the closer you get to the heat source the hotter it gets. That is a fact that you have stated and that IS a true statement. Here is how I am calling my cage a satisfactory success IMO. First off I am using 3/4" plywood that is lined with a fiberglass impregnated panel which gives me excellent insulating factors to retain built up heat. ( This is probably the biggest factor in my equation ) I do not have extra air holes drilled in the cages. I am simply using the spaces that are between the sliding glass doors and I have a spacer that keeps the glass doors open an 1/8" at each end, so there is not an overwhelming amount of air movement going on inside to mix all the air together. The panels are mounted to the far left of each cage so that they only are heating the objects under one side of the cage. The other side of the cage is naturally going to be room temp because it is un heated directly. That is the heat gradient that I refer to when I say one side is showing 86 deg. the other is 78 deg. I think one of the things that you do not approve of is that I dangle my thermostat probe rather than fix it directly to the face of the panel ( if you attach the probe directly to the face of the panel and set it for 90 deg, then it is never going to provide enough energy to do anything, so instead I have my probe positioned 3" from the floor at about the height of the snakes back because that is the spot that I want to be at 86 deg.) the face of the panel does get hot ( 172 deg to be exact ) but because it is attached to the ceiling the snake can never lay directly on them. the most that can happen is it comes into brief contact with the panel. and although 172 deg sounds hot a person can hold their hand directly on the face of the panel at that temp for at least 10 seconds before they have to pull away. Regular heat bulbs reach temps of over 600 deg at the surface face. So there you have it . Yes the top of the hide is hotter than the floor of the cage but in nature that would be true of the sun as well. Overhead heat recreates nature better than under tank heat. I have never seen a termite mound that was heated by a UTH. In the wild the sun heats the outside of the mound from over head causing the inside of the mound to heat up and create a warm environment for the snake to live. You may call what I am doing wrong and point out all kinds of scientific flaws on why my temp gradients are not laboratory perfect but the fact remains that my animals are thriving in this environment. They are on regular feed, they thermo regulate themselves from one side of the cage to the other, their sheds are good and they get regular checkups from the vet with blood workup to ensure that they are healthy. So where is the problem??

[kitedemon]

I believe I said UNLIKELY...

unlikely |ˌənˈlīklē|
adjective ( unlikelier, unlikeliest )
not likely to happen, be done, or be true; improbable: an unlikely explanation | it is unlikely that they will ever be used | [ with infinitive ] : the change is unlikely to affect many people.

So to be clear, you are arguing that the warm air in your enclosure does not rise? Does not mix with the air in the rest of the enclosure to be close to the same temperature? Or that in say 2 feet (width or the enclosure?) it cools off by 8ºF ? Am I the only person who sees this as odd behaviour for air?

Yes I am stubborn and opinionated. I don't care if people think I am it is true. Tenacious, OCD all apply. Clearly. I actually rarely look at whom posted what at all. Mark I am not actually sure what we butted heads on I am sorry if I failed to read fully what you said I skim a lot distracted I have a busy life.

[norwegn113]

KIte, I AM NOT ARGUING any fact. Yes heat rises yes, yes it does , you are correct ! yes the top of my cage is hotter than the bottom but without cross ventilation heat does not move horizontally. That is why we have to have forced air furnaces of some type of fan in the room to circulate air if you heat your home with a radiant heat source. Without a breeze the room will have " hot spots " which is exactly what I created in my cage a thermal hot spot under the panel. You are the one arguing not me, I say the panels work in my situation you say its highly unlikly, Geesh! Dude I want to like you but with you its always constant drama!! I guess my point is if you do not prefer RHP for terrestrial animals , then dont use them! I personally like them. If they were bad or hurting my animals I would not use them, there are two ways to do the same thing and get good results. Your way works for you and my way works for me! Thats all.

[Skiploder]

Kite, I am not arguing the fact that my cage IS hotter at the top then the bottom. My RHP is mounted to the top of the cage , so obviously the closer you get to the heat source the hotter it gets. That is a fact that you have stated and that IS a true statement. Here is how I am calling my cage a satisfactory success IMO. First off I am using 3/4" plywood that is lined with a fiberglass impregnated panel which gives me excellent insulating factors to retain built up heat. ( This is probably the biggest factor in my equation ) I do not have extra air holes drilled in the cages. I am simply using the spaces that are between the sliding glass doors and I have a spacer that keeps the glass doors open an 1/8" at each end, so there is not an overwhelming amount of air movement going on inside to mix all the air together. The panels are mounted to the far left of each cage so that they only are heating the objects under one side of the cage. The other side of the cage is naturally going to be room temp because it is un heated directly. That is the heat gradient that I refer to when I say one side is showing 86 deg. the other is 78 deg. I think one of the things that you do not approve of is that I dangle my thermostat probe rather than fix it directly to the face of the panel ( if you attach the probe directly to the face of the panel and set it for 90 deg, then it is never going to provide enough energy to do anything, so instead I have my probe positioned 3" from the floor at about the height of the snakes back because that is the spot that I want to be at 86 deg.) the face of the panel does get hot ( 172 deg to be exact ) but because it is attached to the ceiling the snake can never lay directly on them. the most that can happen is it comes into brief contact with the panel. and although 172 deg sounds hot a person can hold their hand directly on the face of the panel at that temp for at least 10 seconds before they have to pull away. Regular heat bulbs reach temps of over 600 deg at the surface face. So there you have it . Yes the top of the hide is hotter than the floor of the cage but in nature that would be true of the sun as well. Overhead heat recreates nature better than under tank heat. I have never seen a termite mound that was heated by a UTH. In the wild the sun heats the outside of the mound from over head causing the inside of the mound to heat up and create a warm environment for the snake to live. You may call what I am doing wrong and point out all kinds of scientific flaws on why my temp gradients are not laboratory perfect but the fact remains that my animals are thriving in this environment. They are on regular feed, they thermo regulate themselves from one side of the cage to the other, their sheds are good and they get regular checkups from the vet with blood workup to ensure that they are healthy. So where is the problem??

Radiant energy travels through the air without heating it. It turns into heat when it contacts a cooler solid object.

In that sense, it does not directly heat the air.

However, a radiant panel set over a hide and the surrounding floor of a dark PVC cage will effectively heat those surfaces up. The heated hide and floor will warm the walls. Any air that comes into contact with these heated surfaces is also heated.

Therefore, you can get a boost in ambient temps from a RHP. The heated hide works to warm the air, as does the floor. The top of the hide may heat to 94 degrees, but a shot inside the hide, surrounded by heated floor will be a toasty 88 to 89 degrees.

Again, I ran these setups on terrestrial cages with great success. I'm a believer in RHPs and will use them in ANY sort of cage without hesitation.

[kitedemon]

Kite, I am not arguing the fact that my cage IS hotter at the top then the bottom. My RHP is mounted to the top of the cage , so obviously the closer you get to the heat source the hotter it gets. You have brought up (again) my issues I have with MY RHP. That fact the surface temps are correct the hide TOP is warmer than this. You REPEATEDLY tell me it is the fact my test enclosure is 14 inches tall. I have always said that they heat from the top down and tall things are warmer than the lower things. You have always argued this simple fact this is part of why I say they are more complicated the place you want a given temp (substrate) is the coolest thing vertically. That is a fact that you have stated and that IS a true statement. Here is how I am calling my cage a satisfactory success IMO. First off I am using 3/4" plywood that is lined with a fiberglass impregnated panel which gives me excellent insulating factors to retain built up heat. ( This is probably the biggest factor in my equation ) I do not have extra air holes drilled in the cages. I am simply using the spaces that are between the sliding glass doors and I have a spacer that keeps the glass doors open an 1/8" at each end, so there is not an overwhelming amount of air movement going on inside to mix all the air together. Warm air rises it has to move.The panels are mounted to the far left of each cage so that they only are heating the objects under one side of the cage. The other side of the cage is naturally going to be room temp because it is un heated directly. You stated your AIR temps were 8ºF different on the hot side and cool side That is the heat gradient that I refer to when I say one side is showing 86 deg. the other is 78 deg. I think one of the things that you do not approve of is that I dangle my thermostat probe rather than fix it directly to the face of the panel ( if you attach the probe directly to the face of the panel and set it for 90 deg, Mine has always dangled I tried under the substrate as some do I found if you blocked it the temps shot up so I rejected this method, dangling is the best way I found. My FAILSAFE probe is on the panel face which you have been told more than once. then it is never going to provide enough energy to do anything, so instead I have my probe positioned 3" from the floor at about the height of the snakes back because that is the spot that I want to be at 86 deg.) the face of the panel does get hot ( 172 deg to be exact ) but because it is attached to the ceiling the snake can never lay directly on them. the most that can happen is it comes into brief contact with the panel. and although 172 deg sounds hot a person can hold their hand directly on the face of the panel at that temp for at least 10 seconds before they have to pull away. Regular heat bulbs reach temps of over 600 deg at the surface face. So there you have it . I have never argued any of this. I can read the brochure, I have said as always if the snake can access higher temps on a surface they could lay on that exceed 95º they can have digestion issues like the top of a hide with over head heating. Yes the top of the hide is hotter than the floor of the cage but in nature that would be true of the sun as well. ??? really a difference in temp in four inches? that is unrelated to absorption? Overhead heat recreates nature better than under tank heat. I have never seen a termite mound that was heated by a UTH. In the wild the sun heats the outside of the mound from over head causing the inside of the mound to heat up and create a warm environment for the snake to live. You may call what I am doing wrong and point out all kinds of scientific flaws on why my temp gradients are not laboratory perfect but the fact remains that my animals are thriving in this environment. They are on regular feed, they thermo regulate themselves from one side of the cage to the other, their sheds are good and they get regular checkups from the vet with blood workup to ensure that they are healthy. So where is the problem?? That is simple, you have told me many times the top of my hide being warmer than the bottom is because my enclosure is too short. You have twice suggested that a RHP alone can heat the ambient air more than 15ºF in a regular enclosure. Again you are claiming a gradient in ambient air temps. WARM air rises inside or out side the enclosure it rises law of physics. It has got to mix. The point I made the first time is this it is unlikely that the AIR temps have a gradient as great as 8ºF there MUST be an error. The LIKELY error is placing the probe under the panel and measuring the 'air' temp. It is not the air being measured but the surface of the probe. This is why the claim of massive air temp changes happen the air is not being measured. RHP make small changes to ambient air temps not large ones. You recommend RHP in every case. You always tell me that my enclosure is too low, you then suggest someone use a RHP in a lower enclosure. You can't have it both ways. Things can't heat 15-20ºF air temps (ambient) and then change to only heat 8º or less It does or doesn't they do not vary like with the hot spot the same temp.

I have said over and over they are about the same, one no better or worse than the other. RHP cost more to operate and buy than UTH do. (average RHP is 60$ to average UTH 20$ and UTH almost always are lower wattages so they use less power and heat more energy efficiently (they do not need to be over 100ºF usually.) You compare RHP to Kanes cost wise, it is like saying trucks are cheaper than cars because bugotti veyron costs $1000000.

They effect air temps a little more than a UTH but if you are in a cool room (below normal, >68º) you will still need a secondary heat source, they have more ins and outs that can make them more complex to set up (look at probe placement, there is at least 4 major methods UTH one, maybe two. (More options = more complicated) You have consistently fought this you refuse to accept they might cost more than (original debate was flex watt) UTH in general (even kanes are cheaper as most I see have built in thermostats) They have more complications and they are not efficient heaters. (172 deg to be exact to get 86º, 50% heat loss. UTH usually lose less than 15%) More efficient = less energy. RHPs are less efficient, cost more and are more complicated. This makes the easy cheaper solution a UTH. The differences are slight. You have always argued they are cheaper, the most efficient heat (then talked about heat lamps which no one brought up but you) and vastly different. Yet never have been able to back up the differences or the cost. I have never said they would not work just they are not well suited to terrestrial enclosures (Height less than 16 inches) You constantly argue and yet yours are what 2 feet tall? Hardly the same. You argue they are simple then spout you need to have it sized correctly by one person who will ask every question possible, all a UTH needs is a measuring tape.

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[norwegn113]

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you the man kite, you the man! feel better now?? Me , Im done here! as far as im concerned I have stated my opinions and this thread is now closed to me. Bye.

[DAL]

I just bought one of these shelters for Abed yesterday:



It's currently in what is supposed to be his cool side (I have his UTH turned off until I can get the Hydrofarm's probe on right). I've made it nice and cozy with damp bedding (moss, substrate, and some damp paper towel underneath) and he seems to really like it, so I'm considering buying a second one for his warm side (since I've seen it mentioned that both hides should be identical so the snake doesn't have to choose between security and regulating temperature), but obviously this particular hide wouldn't work with an UTH (or so I'm assuming since it would have to get past the bottom of the enclosure, substrate, and then the rather thick plastic bottom), so my next question is would a RHP be able to keep this shelter warmed up enough (it is on the dark side after all) or should I just scrap getting a second one?

[MarkS]

Wow, did someone put an RHP on this thread? It's getting a little too hot in here. Could everyone please cool down a little? There's some good information in here and I really don't want to lock this thread.