RHP/probe placement?

[Gio]

Kitedemon, I know you've posted this about RHP's before and it makes sense, yet I have had 4 thermometers in the cage in different areas and I have a cool side temp of 80. My temp directly under the RHP is 92. A snake will often bask in the sun and heat itself quite nicely even when the outdoor ambient temps are in the 60's the snake can be much warmer.

I will not argue here with you because I know you are well versed in heating and it's not my field nor do I have expertise in it like you do. Bob at Pro-Products made an equal amount of sense to me and used the sun and thermal gradient the RHP creates as an examples. All I know is its working for me at this point and my cage is nice, warm and humid when I open it. Since the snake is always touching a surface of some type he is in contact with something that is 80 or 92 degrees.

As for the flaw you may see, I too was concerned about the RHP being too hot. It's not for one, but Bob told me even if the temp under the RHP was 100+ degrees, the cage is big enough for the snake to move into or out of the area as it pleases.

I have noticed he spends and equal amont of time on both sides of the cage which shows the gradient in my case is working.

None of my example here is meant to challenge anybody, and I'm certainly not offended by differing opinions. I hold Kitedemon's views highly and have been impressed with the knowledge and the info I've gained from him.

Since I'm out of my depth a bit here, if you really want to know why my setup is working, I'd direct you to contact Bob at Pro-Products.

I am not the only one with this type of setup, in fact the maker of Pro-Line cages, suggested I do it this way.

Again,, do what's best for you. I have a Royal that I heat completely different using a UTH and an infrared bulb.

So far so good on my end and I hope you have success no matter what you choose.

[kitedemon]

Glo,
I apparently was not clear. I wrote bouncing on a bus during the first leg home, so I hope you all will forgive me. When you posted this a while a ago I thought I'd try it in my test enclosure. In that enclosure in my room temps it failed to work. I think heating is such a complex issue, and has so many debates, is because there are a huge number of variables. Too many often to make any type of blanket statements. If the rhp were perfectly sized and wattage correct it should work but if the same panel were moved to a smaller enclosure it may not work. Every set up is unique in the end and what works for one may not work for others. I guess this is all I was trying to impart it failed to work in my set up.

Alex

[Gio]

Glo,
I apparently was not clear. I wrote bouncing on a bus during the first leg home, so I hope you all will forgive me. When you posted this a while a ago I thought I'd try it in my test enclosure. In that enclosure in my room temps it failed to work. I think heating is such a complex issue, and has so many debates, is because there are a huge number of variables. Too many often to make any type of blanket statements. If the rhp were perfectly sized and wattage correct it should work but if the same panel were moved to a smaller enclosure it may not work. Every set up is unique in the end and what works for one may not work for others. I guess this is all I was trying to impart it failed to work in my set up.

Alex

As always well written and thought out Alex. I really can only use my example to the point I can explain it which is not too far LOL! Bob is a heating and cooling specialist and I'm just a guy with a BP for my son and a boa for myself.

Bob MUST have certain info in order for the type of setup I'm running to work. I was very skeptical and had a hard time leaving the UTH and believe it of not, the dreaded heat lamp behind.

There is a safe way to run an RHP and get total tank heat, but as you mentioned wattage, tank height, size, color and interior play a role.

I was so concerned about only using 1 heat source I monitored my tank for 3 weeks with 4 different thermometers prior to getting the snake.

I love to offer advice and try to help when I find something that works. It's what people did for me when I 1st started. Actually you and Aaron (Serpent Merchant) pretty much got me up and running through your posts.

I love and hate these forums because tone, and facial expressions are lost in typing, yet this community is about the only place I find other folks that like snakes. My wife does not share the same joy so I get my snake chats here.

This is a good thread!!

[KMG]

Gio,
Was it with you that Kite and I already discussed this and we found you have a cage made of wood? I seem to remember that we thought that might be the thing helping you. I don't remember for sure.

[Gio]

Gio,
Was it with you that Kite and I already discussed this and we found you have a cage made of wood? I seem to remember that we thought that might be the thing helping you. I don't remember for sure.

No, I'm a plastic cage guy.
http://www.reptileinsider.com/showth...tures-enclosed

I think It is because Bob custom evaluates the panel for room ambient temps, cage size and such is why it works.

I really have to differ to him for the reasons his panel works for my cage. I think if anybody is buying from Pro-Products he'll gladly explain it.

My head was spinning after talking to him. In the end it made sense and it works.

Believe me I was torn between leaving a trusted setup and trying a new one.

That link is just a post I made about caging if you need some insight to my situation.

[KMG]

Must have been someone else.

My panels are from pro-products and I emailed him my cage specs and went with his recommendation.

I think my main issue is the species I keep. I was shooting for a lower hotspot so it really could not effect the rest of the cage correctly.

[Gio]

Must have been someone else.

My panels are from pro-products and I emailed him my cage specs and went with his recommendation.

I think my main issue is the species I keep. I was shooting for a lower hotspot so it really could not effect the rest of the cage correctly.

I really don't understand it. I could never imagine a UTH providing heat for and entire cage, yet a RHP is essentially the same and can in my setup.

That's about all I can say without having Bob get into the conversation. I'm assuming your panel does nothing for your cool side?

What really surprises me is my Herpstat probe is suspended and touches nothing, yet when the cool side cage temp hits 80 degrees, I see the temp on the stat say 80 and the power output % meter drops to zero.

I told Kite in a PM that this summer I'll really see how it goes. Our basement gets colder in the summer because of the AC even with the vents closed.

KMG. you are keeping bloods?? Love that avatar of yours. Nice!

[KatStoverReptiles]

Alright so perhaps I'm being overly concerned with her burning? I just really don't want to have to deal with that situation. I'm leaning towards a setup similar to KMG's as I think that will provide the most control over what the actual surface of the RHP is.

I guess that also begs the question...at what surface temp is a burn a worry?

[mackynz]

Just going to throw this out there. I have an RHP from Pro-Products and their claim that they never get hot enough to burn your animal is a load of crap. When I was testing it out I tried hanging the probe down like kitedemon did and set the thermostat to 80. The thing got well over 100F and hot enought to burn my hand on touch. I ended up going the glue it to the edge route.

[kitedemon]

Kat that is the best question. Reptiles are odd with heat there is a lot of debate as to why and what causes burns. There are no hard studies been done (I think I am thankful they are not intentionally burning snakes...) so conjecture here.

Snake burns can be divided into two groups contact burns and duration burns.

Contact burns need high temps. Much like touching a halogen bulb after being on you would get a burn reptiles get a burn typically 160+ for a fast burn about the temp of coffee if you stick your finger in hot coffee you get a scald almost instantly. So that to me is the lowest point of a contact burn. A animal brushing against something that is 160 or higher will cause a burn almost immediately. This is why many claim RHP to be safe they run below the point a short contact will burn, properly mounted an animal cannot touch it for long periods. General rule of thumb if you find it uncomfortable to hold your hand on for more than 5 seconds it is in the danger zone for a contact burn.

The strange one is the duration burn. Snakes get burned all the time, deep penetrating burns. Why has been a debate in the vet community for some time. There is no proven theory. The issue is a snake will lay on an overly hot surface for some time and become burned, severely burned. Similar to the boiled frog water myth (maybe a myth maybe not that one is sketchy) The temp where this has occurred to my knowledge is over 120º maybe it is hard to get straight info from someone whom has burned a snake. I figure 105ºF is the safe limit likely low but that is what I feel.

The next big question is why don't snakes (reptiles) move? I believe and some of the current theory stands behind it. It comes to ambient temps. The core temp of a snake is greatly effected by the air in the lung. The lung (breathing lung not the other lung) runs past heart, liver, and major circulatory system. Cold air = cold blood. I believe in an attempt to regulate the core temp a snake will lay on a surface and allow the external layers to burn and not move. This is why I constantly harp on ambient temps. Raised awareness of corrected ambient temps may save some burns. Ever notice it is usually larger snakes with burns not babes? I think this helps support this idea, small snakes would warm through the muscle tissues faster before a duration burn.

This is rare in humans but disabled people have been burned by human heating pads because they cannot move off of them. This is why many now have auto off settings and such to protect the people placed upon them who cannot move off on their own.

Glo,
I have emaied Bob on two occasions and never got any response. I guess it is an involved answer and the canadian email precluded an message, don't know, but I never got one.