Breeding a redtail to a rainbow???

[Evenstar]

Kali, the intention was not to be rude, but to point out that comparative ethics are a slippery slope.

I understand, but it did come across that way. We can all keep things friendly here. This post is much better, thanks!

We have epicrates to eunectes crosses, lampropeltis to elaphe crosses and python to aspidites crosses. It's nothing new and the ethical dilemma is a big jump for someone like me who believes in attempting to preserve locality animals.

However considering that this discussion is taking place on a ball python forum, I am amused that some people don't see that ethical jump between breeding regius for morphs to produce unique and aesthetically pleasing color or pattern combinations is spitting distance from doing the same thing with species outcrosses.

I do not consider myself a member of the ball python community to be honest. I only have 2 balls - both of which will never be bred as they were rescues. A member of THIS community, BP.net, absolutely - because it is the best, most informative, helpful, and KINDEST community for herp-lovers on the internet. I do not agree with the over-breeding of balls to produce these "unique and aesthetically pleasing" color morphs that have all these issues. It sickens me. Am I a locality purest who feels hybrids should NEVER be bred? No. I do not agree with hybrids, but I'm not a purest who preaches it on the hilltops. I just simply expressed my opinion here.

Claiming that it's acceptable to line breed within a species for the sole benefit of aesthetics is not morally superior to doing the same thing outside of a species.

I have never made that claim - although I'm sure there are some folks who have, unfortunately.

Somewhere, a long time ago on a forum far far away, some video game playing, porno addicted, self appointed know it all decided to decree that "if it can't happen in the wild, then it shouldn't happen in the rack." You have quoted the basis of the anti-hybrid argument for the last decade. Problem is, is that most of captive herpetoculture doesn't adhere to that rule. We have people breeding ball python morphs that do not occur in the wild, we have boa outcrosses that do not occur in the wild and now we have people doing the same with countless other "pure" species.

I am not a fan of hybrids. I just get a laugh at the morph crowd in their crystal mansion tossing rocks at the hybrid mob in the waterford palace.

I will certainly agree with you on this point. And if this is what you meant by your last post, then I appologize for misunderstanding. One cannot convey the intonations of voice in text, which is why it's important to be careful. Thank you for the explanation!

[Skiploder]

Be careful, Kali. There is a difference between judgment and opinion. It's my opinion that condemning hybrids while approving morphs is questionable, but I do not think less of people who do either. As long as they provide the proper care for their animals, I could care less about what animals they prefer to keep. In other words, I do not judge their choice(s). To do so would be hypocritical since I am the proud owner of a beautiful super hypo false water cobra and a beautiful piebald mussurana.

There are a lot of excellent and conscientious keepers who breed/keep morphs and their are a lot of excellent and conscientious keepers who breed/keep hybrids. What I question is the moral or ethical condemnation, or better yet judgment, of advocates of one side over the other.

[3skulls]

It all depends on where you want to place your ethical bar.
The lowest point is where a person would look at keeping any type of wild animal in a plastic or glass box unethical.

There is always a person with a different view. Who's to say one view is better over the other?

I think there is enough room in the hobby for everyone. I think it becomes unethical if and when a breeder tries to sell a cross, hybrid, mutt as something it wasn't. That's when it hurts the hobby. Even a pure bloodline can get mislabeled somewhere down the line of owners.

When you start pointing fingers and start saying things shouldn't be done, be ready for the people to start telling you their opinions. There are huge groups out there that think it's unethical to have pets in the first place.

I'm all for hybrids, mutts, morphs, pure bloodlines. I have animals sitting in plastic for my enjoyment and might even make money off of them one day. I'm in no position to judge a person If they want to cross A with B.

Is it important that we keep pure bloodlines? Yes!
Are those pure bloodlines kept in captivity on the same path as the wild animal? No! So in a way that pet, money maker, project has already been changed.

How many wild caught animals have died from the stress of shipping just so we can own a life? In a way we are all a bit guilty of being unethical.

There is room for all of us. We should all work together and make sure we always have the right to enjoy our hobby.

[Evenstar]

I appreciate what you both are saying. And I agree with you both as well. To be honest, I think I am trying to express the same views. I have been pretty sick for the last few weeks with a ruptured appendix and on some pretty good narcotic pain killers. I doubt I am expressing myself as eloquently as I might otherwise. LoL.....

To be clear, what I tried to express in the first place was my opinion only. I am anything but judgmental. As you said, Skip, that would be hypocritical. Thanks to my wonderful drugs, my opinions may well have sounded as though I was being judgmental - and for that I do apologize. I don't look at morphs of any species in the same way as hybrids though - just making that distiction. A hypo false water cobra and a piebald mussarana are still pure of their species. But that's neither here nor there - your point is well recieved.

As one example (and PLEASE no one jump all over me for using this example!!!), I disagree very strongly with same-sex marriage. Yes, I am pretty conservative. However, two very close friends of ours are gay and are attempting to marry. I do not judge them or condemn them for their choices - these are their choices and only they can make them. They are still and always will be our friends. We love them no matter what.

The same is true for me in this situation. I never said that I would look down on the op if he/she attempted that breeding. But the unfortunate reality of our culture is that there are people who will. The op should be aware of that if they should go ahead with it. But the choice is theirs and it is not for me to say what they should do.

I hope all that made a bit more sense. 3skulls, very well stated!! I am bowing out of the conversation now as I think I ought to be healthier and a bit more clear-headed before attempting such serious debate and/or advice.

[xFenrir]

If the offspring of any hybrid can live and thrive, then that's the best we can hope for since there will always be hybrids. And I hope that if someone does successfully cross a BRB with any sort of RTB and the offspring turn out to be sickly/cannot thrive, that people won't keep attempting it.

As human beings, we're curious people. We need to KNOW if we can do it. Granted, that's not always a good thing. I mean heck, everyone watched Jurassic Park, right?

[Korclabael]

Whoaaaa now, LOOL I leave this post for I don't know how long and I get three pages to read, while I enjoy some of the positive feedback I didn't quite mean to start an argument or rather a heated debate. However,I kinda feel sorry for the snakes that are cross-bred and successful at creating babies, its like a royal bloodline gone bad and everyone shuns upon the poor little baby(ies). I don't intend to cross-breed until I find out if its safe, not whether its going to make people hate it/me just cause it has two different breeds for parents.

As for reputation, I don't think it matters whether I have a reputation of the most successful breeder out there or the most crazy and low for breeding two beautiful snakes, not only that but if it were a successful attempt, I'm pretty sure it would be more positive than negative in the sense that I or someone else created a new hybrid (for those who care). "Just because you CAN, doesn't mean that you SHOULD...", Now, that comment didn't stop many people from mix-breeding many other animals, look at the liger for instance, I don't claim to be a genius but those are two different species, no? But yes snakes are different, I would much rather have the babies live and thrive rather than have to put them down because they were all defective. Its called Trial and Error, and as for selling the litter, I probably wouldn't unless I found people who were interested, not everyone hates hybrids, nor would I release them into the wild, that's pure idiocy, they were born in captivity and although instinct is natural I am to much like a mother to my snakes to want to throw them out into the world like that.

My choices in words and persuasive conversation are small however, lack of sleep will do that to a person, I just thought I would ask a question in hopes of getting something entirely different, if at some point I do breed two different species of snake, I now know not to throw it around like a basket of shiny gems on here.

Hope you all had a wonderful Christmas and have a even happier New Years!

~Kaala

[KingPythons]

On a side note, hybrid whales live and have been around. They still play a major part to our oceans.

[3skulls]

I don't see this as a heated debate. I do see a passion behind the views stated here.

That's a good thing for the Herp community. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum as much as I do.

[Korclabael]

Well I am glad, I enjoyed finding more positive comments back on this, at least I'm confused as to what is a good response and what isn't. All these scientific names for snake breeds are making my brain hurt LOL.

[Evenstar]

I don't see this as a heated debate. I do see a passion behind the views stated here.

That's a good thing for the Herp community. One of the reasons I enjoy this forum as much as I do.

Same here. We can debate and keep it friendly. Many reptile keepers are just very passionate.