Narrow minded or am I asking too much?

[rabernet]

You're asking too much....

[OmNomNom]

I can see a lot of not so good in this and a small amount of good but for what.

What I don't see is anything positive.

People have been keeping and being bitten by Ball Pythons for more than 40 years. I don't know of anyone ever anywhere that has had anything other than an embarrassing story and a few moments of surprise and a bit of a sting come of it.

You seem a rather single minded individual whose focus is on bacteria. That's cool. The rationals and reasoning behind this snake related curiosity that you are using are faulty. For the general hobbyist your work has no relevance that is not already well documented. If you're looking to reproduce what has been done, then I suppose you're on the right track. If you're looking to pioneer, you might want to see what your destination is before you board your train.

I do agree with this, and that the angle you're taking might not be the most novel/beneficial. You need to ask, what is the significance/impact of your research? What knowledge will be gained from it? Simply culturing and identifying the bacteria that grows in a ball python's mouth in order to educate the general public is perhaps noble, but ultimately fruitless. As you've pointed out with cats, and has been done with dogs, they harbor all kinds of pathogens in their mouths but the public either 1) ignores it or 2) takes it the wrong way. You'd be far better taking an approach to educate the public about microbiology and pathogens in general.

I don't think the research itself is uninteresting (see my previous post), but you need to frame it in a different context. Such as, what do we know about ball python digestion and immune systems? Given that they metabolize whole animals, this is a potentially interesting subject, and approaching an owner with that angle "I would like to investigate aspects of ball python digestion, here's what's known in the field ___blank___, here's what's not ___blank___, and here's what I would like to find out ___blank___." might get you a better reception than "I want to find out what's growing in their mouths." and sparking undue panic.

But, you need 1) a hypothesis 2) rationale 3) protocols 4) a way of analyzing and presenting the data in such a way that benefits the field without unduly scaring the general public (always a fun line to walk). As you've seen from the reactions here, most people are not going to be very accommodating of your approach. And while the owner's reaction to E.coli was perhaps....not grounded in science, he does have every right to refuse your request. It is your duty to convince/reassure people that your work is important, if they refuse, then you've most likely failed to do that.

[wolfy-hound]

AND if the public refuses your request, you need to thank them anyway for their time and consideration. Don't burn any bridge you don't have to. Who knows, at a later date he could be one to help you out in some major way in a different study. Keep every reptile relationship you can possible cultivate, even if the person isn't "useful" to you right then.

[Slim]

I think your request is fairly harmless, however, I would not let you swab any of the snakes in my collection. I understand the swab is sterile, but I see no need to stress my animals for a study that doesn't seem very necessary.

In addition, while I may trust you as a fellow snake keeper, and as a fellow member of BP.net, and as a human being in general, that does not mean I would trust you with my snakes. Nothing personal, just business.

[PsychD_Student]

So I called a herp hobby shop a bit ago and explained my snake saliva project and asked if he would be willing to let me come swab the mouth of some of his BP's to determine what bacteria are present in the saliva. I explained I've already done this to one of mine and the swab is harmless to the snake, and that mine had E. coli in its saliva. He kinda freaked out saying I need to contact the CDC because of that and thought it was contagious. He first said no to it cause he didn't want to hurt his snakes by breaking a tooth or infecting their mouths, or get them sick because mine "has E. coli". I tried to explain they won't get an infection because it's a sterile swab, it won't pull any teeth, and not all E. coli is pathogenic. He told me he wasn't comfortable with me doing it and to contact a vet or go to Busch Gardens (Tampa), so I apologized that he wasn't willing to help increase the knowledge of BP's. He did invite me to come talk in person and try to explain more, so I may be able to after all.
What do you all think, am I asking too much?

-Rich

Hey man, as a researcher myself, people are so often paranoid about the most trivial things to us. Its important to explain to people in layman's terms and try to relay the important implications your study has on him and or society. I do HIV research, and it can be DIFFICULT to get people to understand it's importance due to the fears associated with simply being inexperienced and unknowledgable about the research process. It is what it is...

[mackynz]

Oh my, I don't even know where to start here. As a Wildlife Reseach and Managment major I completely see the merits of this. Many of you are not seeming to understand why he is doing this. Not all research is aimed at creating something new or figuring out a new way to do something. A large portion of research done with wildlife (captive or not) is done for knowledge sake. We might not need to know it now, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be helpful in the future.

ex. Someone has a BP with digestive symptoms that haven't been seen before. When a culture is done it would be helpful to know what gut flora belong and what could be causing the problem.


I can't see something like this causing harm to the hobby at all. Do you reallly think the kind of people who don't know enough about E. coli to know that it is inside their own bodies are the kind of people who will be reading the science journals something like this would be published in?

OP, I think that as long as you explain it to him and respect his wishes you are in the clear. Make sure to take down what type of prey the eat (f/t, live) because that too may make a difference.

And please don't let people who don't understand or see value in research deter you.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I think as someone you wish to do research you need to be able to take NO for an answer and this does not mean the person in question is narrow minded.

I can tell you if you contact me I would say no too for various reasons.

This industry is under a lot of scrutiny, your intention might be noble however who is to say that your research could not be used to portray reptiles in an even more negative way. Such a research could support yet another point on why people should not own reptiles and why people are at risks. (thought not like if they don't have scientific datas they won't make some up either )

Will this industry or snake owner benefit from this research? NO people have been keeping reptiles in captives for decades and I am pretty sure this is not a concern of their to know what bacteria are present in their snake's saliva. (I know it's not on my mind)

Could it pour more oil on the fire? Yes

So yeah you are asking too much but to understand that you need to understand this hobby/industry.

Now no one will stop you from swabbing your own snakes if that's what you want to do however not sure anyone will volunteer theirs.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

Oh my, I don't even know where to start here. As a Wildlife Reseach and Managment major I completely see the merits of this. Many of you are not seeming to understand why he is doing this. Not all research is aimed at creating something new or figuring out a new way to do something. A large portion of research done with wildlife (captive or not) is done for knowledge sake. We might not need to know it now, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be helpful in the future.

ex. Someone has a BP with digestive symptoms that haven't been seen before. When a culture is done it would be helpful to know what gut flora belong and what could be causing the problem.


I can't see something like this causing harm to the hobby at all. Do you reallly think the kind of people who don't know enough about E. coli to know that it is inside their own bodies are the kind of people who will be reading the science journals something like this would be published in?

OP, I think that as long as you explain it to him and respect his wishes you are in the clear. Make sure to take down what type of prey the eat (f/t, live) because that too may make a difference.

And please don't let people who don't understand or see value in research deter you.

Many people here understand the value of research and disagree with your conclusion. It doesn't mean we do not understand the experiment.

I have worked in 3 separate animal laboratories. I have witnessed animals tortured in ways that would make your stomache turn just for the abstract goal of knowledge "done for knowledge sake"... and of course the grant money. Obviously, the OP isn't planning any such experiment (say involving covering rats in thousands of ticks and watching them slowly die or intubating rats without pain meds for weeks at time until they die or ....) but, like others have said, it's a little far fetched to that this experiment is going to push the bounds of what we know. There's nothing wrong with asking someone for help (using their BPs) but there's equally nothing wrong with that person saying NO.

Many of you are not seeming to understand why he is doing this.

You seem to not understand that we get it but don't see why a private individual should feel in any way, shape, or form obligated to expose his private property for an experiment that has the possibility to provide the ammunition to have said colony later forcibly removed by the state. We just had HSUS lobbying hard in our state capital to ban exotics. Due to certain awesome individuals, the vote has been tabled for another year. HSUS is still working hard on key congressmen and would love to have a published study like this.

[wolfy-hound]

Absolutely. Just because I do not AGREE with you does not in any way mean I don't UNDERSTAND. It means I disagree. It always peeves me when someone decides to act as if they are so much above others.

I understand why he likes the idea. I understand how the research would be done. I understand that the bacteria is obviously not harmful. I disagree that the study will be beneficial to the hobby, and highly feel that it could be harmful in the PR media area.

If you think that HSUS doesn't use scientific studies as ammunition, perhaps you have not been paying attention to what they are using to ban the "giant" pythons importation.

Not trying to be insulting, but your tone comes across as "Oh, it's just that they aren't intelligent enough to understand us scientific smart people" and that is unlikely to garner support.

edit: in response to the post by mackynz Others posted in between.

[Skiploder]

Oh my, I don't even know where to start here. As a Wildlife Reseach and Managment major I completely see the merits of this. Many of you are not seeming to understand why he is doing this. Not all research is aimed at creating something new or figuring out a new way to do something. A large portion of research done with wildlife (captive or not) is done for knowledge sake. We might not need to know it now, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be helpful in the future.

ex. Someone has a BP with digestive symptoms that haven't been seen before. When a culture is done it would be helpful to know what gut flora belong and what could be causing the problem.


I can't see something like this causing harm to the hobby at all. Do you reallly think the kind of people who don't know enough about E. coli to know that it is inside their own bodies are the kind of people who will be reading the science journals something like this would be published in?

OP, I think that as long as you explain it to him and respect his wishes you are in the clear. Make sure to take down what type of prey the eat (f/t, live) because that too may make a difference.

And please don't let people who don't understand or see value in research deter you.

Several studies have already been done on the normal mouth/esophagus bacterial flora of ball pythons.