Do you avoid morphs with known genetic flaws?

[snake lab]

This is what I couldn't understand, in bold.

What line of caramel are you working with? Do you ever hatch any with the extreme kinks, or are they all very minor when they do hatch? If you have ones that never hatch major kinks, you could be marketing and selling them for alot more if it's proven.

Im saying none of my caramels have kinks. None of the ones i own are kinked. Have they produced kinked babies? Yes 3 years ago i had 2 babies out of 5 clutches of caramels that had slight kinks. I would say pretty good odds. You may disagree but nothing is perfect.
With you calling yourself genetics breeder you should know this. And with you way of thinking i wouldnt be making a website promoting ball breeding if your against working with morphs that have some genetic flaws cause that will cut you out of about 50% of the market.

[Genetics Breeder]

Im saying none of my caramels have kinks. None of the ones i own are kinked. Have they produced kinked babies? Yes 3 years ago i had 2 babies out of 5 clutches of caramels that had slight kinks. I would say pretty good odds. You may disagree but nothing is perfect.
With you calling yourself genetics breeder you should know this. And with you way of thinking i wouldnt be making a website promoting ball breeding if your against working with morphs that have some genetic flaws cause that will cut you out of about 50% of the market.

Oh ok, that's what I was asking. Those are very good odds, for a caramel. What line do you have?

It wouldn't be close to 50% of the morphs that I cut out. I would cut out anything with neurological or mental disorders, and anything with problems that can at all affect the animal functioning, no matter how minor. If some have very minor bug eyes, but so minor that it was almost not there, that is, in my opinion, alot better that an animal with the possibility of corkscrewing/spinning. I still would be against anything more major than that.

Also, there are still many species with very few morphs, or only the wild phase, so breeding only non-problematic morphs is completely normal. There are even people that only breed normal ball pythons.
Stinkpot turtles, green anoles, rosy boas, and many species of tortoises don't even have morphs. People still breed those.
Then there are still other species that have only non-problematic morphs, probably because there are not many morphs. Brazilian rainbow boas only have 2 genetic morphs, anerythristic and hypomelanistic. Then there are a few line bred genes, but only those 2 genetic morphs, plus the ghost, an anerythristic hypomelanistic.

[RobNJ]

rosy boas, and many species of tortoises don't even have morphs

There are rosy boa morphs.

[Genetics Breeder]

There are rosy boa morphs.

I remember now, the albinos and ghosts. Still, there are not many, and none that I know have problems. I was talking about the localities.

My point is that there are animals out there with only the wild type, still being bred.

[snake lab]

My lines are a mixed bag but i have crider lines in my project which have been known to not produce kinks. As far as this post goes. I apoligize i was under the understanding that we were talking about ball pythons considering the poll. If we are talking about ball pythons then it would be nearly impossible not to flirt with genetic flaws. Also ball python breeding has come so far in a short period of time and more people are breeding them then any other snake. With that said it is not hard to believe that these genetic flaws can be manipulated and corrected over time and selective breeding. For example i got into a pissing match a few months ago about the spider wobble. I have been breeding spider combos off of my original male i bought for 15k back in 2002 from rob at then spiderballs.net. that male had no wobble at all. It was 8 clutches before i saw a wobble. Great odds. The spider that came out with the wobble was never bred. I sold it to a lady who still has it today as a pet. Now im not saying i have never produced any wobblers since but i do take breeding seriouslly and do select breeding to ensure the greatest odds. These other snakes you mention to be free from genetic flaws could be a real strong genetic animal or the face not as much work has been put in to them to discover any flaws. As we push to open genetic windows there will always be flaws that we uncover. The fact that mainstream breeding of snakes is still in its infancy im sure you will see these flaws in the future. We are manipulating natures way plain amd simple. We the breeders are the scientists.

[rabernet]

Oh ok, that's what I was asking. Those are very good odds, for a caramel. What line do you have?

It wouldn't be close to 50% of the morphs that I cut out. I would cut out anything with neurological or mental disorders, and anything with problems that can at all affect the animal functioning, no matter how minor. If some have very minor bug eyes, but so minor that it was almost not there, that is, in my opinion, alot better that an animal with the possibility of corkscrewing/spinning. I still would be against anything more major than that.

Also, there are still many species with very few morphs, or only the wild phase, so breeding only non-problematic morphs is completely normal. There are even people that only breed normal ball pythons.
Stinkpot turtles, green anoles, rosy boas, and many species of tortoises don't even have morphs. People still breed those.
Then there are still other species that have only non-problematic morphs, probably because there are not many morphs. Brazilian rainbow boas only have 2 genetic morphs, anerythristic and hypomelanistic. Then there are a few line bred genes, but only those 2 genetic morphs, plus the ghost, an anerythristic hypomelanistic.

I'm curious, I remember from past conversations that you are a young man (15 if I remember correctly). You present yourself very well for 15. Very opinionated for your young age, but very well. How many ball pythons are you currently working with yourself? How many different mutations?

[Genetics Breeder]

I'm curious, I remember from past conversations that you are a young man (15 if I remember correctly). You present yourself very well for 15. Very opinionated for your young age, but very well. How many ball pythons are you currently working with yourself? How many different mutations?

I have albino, pied, OG, pastel, citrus, line bred granite, ivory, combinations of those genes, and a few others. I don't know the exact amount. I have more of other species than ball pythons, and those have morphs also.

I also didn't say that I do have any of the morphs this poll was about. I have experience with other animals, like boas, colubrids, and geckos, and those have morphs. I think that with the spider wobble, people might be underestimating how powerful and sophisticated animals' brains are. People say that they want to keep the personality, but not the wobble or corkscrewing.
To me, that seems almost impossible. There is just too much variation. If people can barely line-breed for certain visual traits without altering others that they are not aware of, it would be all the more dangerous with neurological affects, especially since some become progressively worse/better with age, and people could easily alter other areas of the brain/neurological system without realizing it, just trying to breed them out of the problems.

[RobNJ]

People say that they want to keep the personality, but not the wobble or corkscrewing.

Who says that? I think most people have resigned to the fact that if they choose to breed spiders and spider combos, then neurological issues are sure to come with that choice. They eat fine, drink fine, poop fine, and shed fine, so who's to say that a little wobble or corkscrew make them unsuitable for breeding. It's not as if we're breeding spiders to repopulate balls in the wild. If bred in captivity and kept in captivity, what is the issue?

[Genetics Breeder]

Who says that? I think most people have resigned to the fact that if they choose to breed spiders and spider combos, then neurological issues are sure to come with that choice. They eat fine, drink fine, poop fine, and shed fine, so who's to say that a little wobble or corkscrew make them unsuitable for breeding. It's not as if we're breeding spiders to repopulate balls in the wild. If bred in captivity and kept in captivity, what is the issue?

Of course not. It's the same as the goldfish that have HUGE eyes sticking out of their head.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...58&pcatid=2758
There are also 'bubble cheek' goldfish that have huge pouches under their eyes.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65304419@N00/3109378507

I shouldn't even have to describe it, but obviously, the huge eyes and cheek pouches can be damaged and even POP. Yes, they can break open, and the fish will be left swimming around, until it dies, with broken loose skin from the huge pouches. It can happen from sharp rocks in the tank, the filter intake, or other fish biting. Do YOU think that's good? They die if that happens to them. People are still breeding them, saying the same thing as you are about spiders.
That is the issue.
I know that goldfish are not ball pythons. People use the same excuses for breeding animals that are messed up.
Not a single person has been able to tell me why them seem to have to breed spiders. Whether you like what I say or not, if someone has the will power, they can easily avoid buying spiders, and like people always say about breeding ball pythons, if you aren't patient or don't have enough self control, you shouldn't be doing it.

Seeing something day after day makes it seem a lot better than it is. I brought it up in another thread. Reptile vets are normally surprised that people are still breeding spiders, even after they know that they have problems. The fact that people back each other up doesn't help. One post with someone saying 'spiders aren't bad. Just buy what you like' gets thanked 10 times.
The single comment made by another person, other than mine, saying 'why do people still breed them', doesn't get thanked, it just gets tons of negative replies talking about how colorful the combo morphs are with spider.

How could we live without it?

I know!!!
Pretend it's not there. How hard is that for people?
I guess it's pretty hard, based on all of the impulsive-purchases and people regretting that they bought the baby retic at an expo, then releasing it.

People need self control. I know there are people that think before they buy a spider, but when they are hearing other people constantly talking about how good it is, the decision is biased.

There are dog breeds that can only give birth through c-section. Is it going to be that bad with ball pythons in years?

[Genetics Breeder]

Who says that? I think most people have resigned to the fact that if they choose to breed spiders and spider combos, then neurological issues are sure to come with that choice. They eat fine, drink fine, poop fine, and shed fine, so who's to say that a little wobble or corkscrew make them unsuitable for breeding. It's not as if we're breeding spiders to repopulate balls in the wild. If bred in captivity and kept in captivity, what is the issue?

I forgot to actually mention what you asked me.
First of all, look on these forums before asking me who said something. I know you saw that other thread. People said that 'spiders are more curious and have more personality than other ball pythons'. They also said 'spider problems are being bred out of them'. Like I wrote above, people are underestimating the power of animals' brains.
They aren't just going to breed them away from the neurological disorder, while still keeping some aspect of it that seems to make them 'more curious' and with 'more personality'.
Actually, people still say that they are trying to breed them out of the problems. Just look it up.

You also say the thing about them 'eating, growing, and breeding fine'. Of course they will. What are most animals main purpose in the wild?
Eating, growing, then breeding to make more of the species.
It's the most basic instinct-repopulate to make more of the species.
That doesn't help your argument.
Also, you said that if they were kept and bred in captivity there should be no problems.
Whether it's obvious to you or not, people are already breeding past the point that is natural. I'm not talking about colors or patterns, those are exceptions.
It's one thing to change the color or pattern of an animal. Screwing with brain function is completely different.