I've got the Wobbles!

[Coils]

So, here is the scoop. I've had my spider for about 3-4 years now. I'm already aware that all spiders and morphs stringing from them have wobble in their genetics.

However, when I got my spider I thought I was already dealing with the worst of his condition. It appears I was wrong. As he's aged his wobble has gotten progressively worse. I didn't expect this to happen and it's now getting bad enough that when it's come to feeding he is having issues. It's really starting to worry me at this point.

This last year is when it's really started kicking in. He WAS able to strike properly at his food and find the head without delay. He now can't strike his food without a LOT of misses and erratic spinning. He came close to getting me a few times and I am usually well out of the way. It's taken him about an hour and a half to eat the last three times....one time the rat having been too cold and he lost interest in it all together.

He doesn't have the star gazer's disease. He was paired last year and this year with a few females and they are perfectly fine. I've heard its extremely contagious so I would assume it would have affected my group already this being the case.

Maybe his wobble increased because of the stress/stimulation of breeding. I'm not sure. Either way, I'm now getting concerned. I fed him recently, otherwise would try to get a video of just how bad it is.

1.) Does the wobble gene ever kill spiders, has it stopped others from being able to properly function when it comes to eating/drinking?

2.) Will breeding him increase the chance that the babies be born with just as bad of a wobble, one bad enough to interfere with daily function?

3.) Will it continue to get worse? Anyone here with a spider/spider morph where the wobble is extreme?
Thanks!

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I can't answer question 1 for certain; the only way I think that the animal would die of its condition (without help) would be if it absolutely completely lost the ability to eat or drink and died of dehydration. Otherwise I am sure spiders have died because of the wobble -- not from it -- when their owners elected euthanasia, OR if an uninformed veterinarian condemned them with IBD and recommended euthanasia. (I'm sure it hasn't happened often, but I don't doubt that one or both things has happened at least a few times.)

I can't answer questions 2 and 3, either, but I can offer my own experience and opinions ...

I have a spider who is currently going through a somewhat similar thing. I've had her since she was a baby, and she never once showed neurologic signs until she was about 1300 grams or so. At that point she began holding her head awkwardly for very brief periods just prior to feeding. She has progressed, and at this point it may take her an extra strike to hit the rat. She's a very aggressive feeder and she still usually has the rat in her coils <30 seconds from presentation. The swallowing reflex does not seem at all affected (I have never heard of a spider whose swallow was affected and would be very interested to hear it if someone has one). If I open her cage to remove her, she hold her head at an awkward angle, but that's about it. She does not spin or loop.

My male bumblebee has always exhibited the same level of neurologic difficulty -- it hasn't gotten better or worse. In his case it is definitely exacerbated by stress -- he will spin if he is put in an environment in which he's uncomfortable, such as a strange tub. However, he has never (or very rarely, enough that I can't recall it) shown any signs during feeding. He feeds like a normal ball. I would say I only catch him spinning maybe a couple times a year.

My male spinner was slightly "off" when I got him; he's now about 1200 grams and acts pretty darn normal. So in his case, I'd say he improved.

I used to think (hope??) that maybe we could breed the wobble out of spiders. My logic was that, since variability exists in how the gene is expressed (degree of severity, age of onset, progression of condition, etc.) that there must be other gene factors influencing the expression of the "wobble" gene, and those could be selected for or against. (Same way that we can select for "pretty" or "ugly" pastels -- there are other, non-pastel genes that affect the way the pastel gene is expressed.)

However, while I still believe that's probably the case, at this point I think it's a bit hopeless to think we could really select for or against the wobble because the age of onset can be so late. Your bee didn't really get bad until a couple years after he'd been bred. My spider gal has gotten progressively worse as well. So either one of us could have bred our animals thinking we were selecting for pretty good, "non-wobbly" genes, when in fact they're just late-onset wobblers.

I would still advise someone against breeding a spider that was very severe and had been from birth. Maybe he'd throw all very mildly affected babies, but I wouldn't take that risk.

At this point, a couple of years after having gotten into BPs (with my spider gal as one of my first) and having bred the bee a few times, I'm still on the fence as to the ethics of propagating these animals. That debate has been hashed and hashed again so many times I won't even get into it, but from a personal standpoint, know that if you're wondering, you're not the only one.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Aah, and a few more thoughts.

Spiders aren't the only ball morphs that can be neurologic. I've heard tell of a few sable and champagne combos that are off, and a few folks on here with regular womas say that they can wobble/spin as well.

Also, I have an albino male that I think may be low-grade neurologic. He doesn't spin or wobble, but he misses the rat more times than any of my spiders. He's been that way for a couple years now and has not gotten better or worse. (He does look at bit like what I'd imagine an albino woma would look, though .........)

And finally, I hatched a super pastel (non-spider) son from my bee who was very mildly neuro. He had a head tilt and I saw him spin a couple times, just like his dad. I have no idea what that means.

[Subdriven]

My bee was with out any signs of wobble till he was 1 year old. Then he started to get worse, never real bad but you just noticed it more. After breeding it got better and now 3 years later he only shows signs if he is really stressed. I've had 3 clutches from him and have only seen 1 bee and my killer bee with any signs as hatchlings out of 2 bees, 1 killer and 12 spiders he produced.

I think alot of it is stress related. Many recheck his husbandry and try some adjustments.

[YOSEF]

I am sorry that your snake is having problems. I must confess that I do not know very much about Ball python morphs. I lost interest in the species many years ago. When I was into ball pythons the only craze with them were the albinos......and with trying to get them to eat regularly.

Hope that your snake recovers !
Yosef

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Sometimes it comes and goes. He may be worse now, but it will probably come and go.

As long as it is eating, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

[Coils]

Sometimes it comes and goes. He may be worse now, but it will probably come and go.

As long as it is eating, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

I am sorry that your snake is having problems. I must confess that I do not know very much about Ball python morphs. I lost interest in the species many years ago. When I was into ball pythons the only craze with them were the albinos......and with trying to get them to eat regularly.

Hope that your snake recovers !
Yosef

My bee was with out any signs of wobble till he was 1 year old. Then he started to get worse, never real bad but you just noticed it more. After breeding it got better and now 3 years later he only shows signs if he is really stressed. I've had 3 clutches from him and have only seen 1 bee and my killer bee with any signs as hatchlings out of 2 bees, 1 killer and 12 spiders he produced.

I think alot of it is stress related. Many recheck his husbandry and try some adjustments.

Thank you all so much for your insight and opinions.

I am guessing he has just been stressed more because of the breeding and constant cage changes over time. It just unnerves me to watch him at times and especially when it comes to feeding. He just gets really worked up when food is offered and I would hope he doesn't get to the point of being able to not eat. So far he can still swallow/function right in -that- aspect.

I don't plan on having him "put down" because of this gene, and as stated I know it's just him and not star gazers...so I wouldn't listen to a vet if they ever told me -that-.

(he continuing to drink fine as well)

I will try to find ways to relieve some stress and hope he wont get any worse as time goes on. I don't even hold him as much as I USED to.

[Subdriven]

Are you feeding live?

[Coils]

Are you feeding live?

No, I don't feed any of mine live.