Let's Clear Some Stuff Up About IBD

[zina10]

May it all be as it is, BUT I think it is important to point one thing out...

Quarantine IS VERY IMPORTANT.

I think some herpers could take this information as in "oh well, quarantine can't prevent this IBD, so why bother..."

Research is still ongoing. Bugs can "evolve" and change. Some people have "hands on" experience, others work in labs, etc etc. Not all cases are "textbook" or the same.

It IS a devastating disease. One should do "all they can" to prevent ending up with it. Be vigilant about "who" and "where" you buy from. Practice good husbandry, quarantine and cleanliness. There are also other devastating bugs that can end up wiping out your collection...

I'm not going against anyones research, experience or new facts. To most of us its a no-brainer to continue being vigilant, practicing quarantine, etc etc. But I also know that some people are slack about it, and could possible take this info and use it as "why bother, won't change a thing about final outcome" reasoning.

I know this is not meant to be taken this way, just thought I'd point it out

[MikeV]

This is the problem with IBD

no two groups of people can give the same answer on it.

Vets say its fatal within months in pythons, and fatal within the same time for BABY boas.

Then you have researchers saying that it can stick around for years without showing then kill

so, for now... I am only going to believe what EXTREMELY experienced staff from RTB.net have told me

Until proven otherwise I take their word over anybody elses to be honest.

[Skiploder]

I believe the Barkers both have degrees in biology and both worked in (I don't recall which one) zoos with snakes, they both have published in journals. I tend to take their book as it is researched and referenced as well as any journal I have ever read. I am not questioning you or Dr E. Jacobson either. I have not had time to read the 2 papers I have found in addition to your posted link yet but much of the research is done with Boidea isn't it? I understood that they could be a passive carrier and carry with no symptoms for long periods of time, but Royals have not currently been found to be carriers but show symptoms quickly. I read this somewhere and as much as I hate it I cannot figure out where that was. My brief read (I have not had time to read in depth yet) (http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/de...JExoticPet.pdf)

that the article mentions "Boa constrictors affected by IBD also regurgitated food items within several days of feeding, in addition to the CNS disease signs described for pythons"

My understanding is that when it attacks the CNS neurological signs are rapid and evident. Is this incorrect? I could not find an reference to it. I don't have enough knowledge to make meaningful points at all. I have questions with out answers.

Has there been studies done on Royals and IBD or is it limited to Boidea?

Have there been documented cases of IBD in Royals that carry no outward signs?

When IBD enters CNS is there neurological issues?

Has there been Royals showing signs of IBD but with no CNS involvement?

I am not saying I have accurate information. I am not saying the information presented is not absolutely correct. I am saying does it apply to Royal Pythons the same way? I know boidea can carry IBD for ages I know of one whom has. What I don't know and have not seen any reference pointed to a meaningful study that Royals can carry the disease without outward symptoms. Do you have one?

Alex:

What the Barkers have degrees in is irrelevant. They are not researching the disease. Dr. Jacobson and his group are researchers at the forefront of studying and categorizing this disease.

The short answer to your question is who knows? The researchers are sorely underfunded and the community has been pathetic in helping them.

The common conventional wisdom was that boas can harbor it, pythons succumb quickly. In some cases that has happened, in others it hasn't.

The problem is people often don't find out why their pet snake has died, into the trash it goes. As more and more people are becoming educated on this, more and more people are opting for necropsies and histologies on deceased animals.

It's very important that you read the dates on what ever research papers you read. I cannot stress enough the differences in conventional wisdom on IBD from as short as three years ago to today.

If all else fails, Dr. Jacobson has shown an inclination to respond to emails. This discussion has been carried out on several forums already and in every case, Dr. J has taken the time to answer in a candid and forthright manner.

When I wrote him, I was very concerned about my antaresia, aspidites and regius. His response to me was honest: no one knows how long those species can remain asymptomatic, no one knows exactly how it's spread and no one knows how those symptoms would present themselves.

What has happened with a lot of these care sheets (including those on the sites of respected breeders) is that they parse a limited amount of info and draw absolute conclusions from them.

Case in point - 7 or 8 years ago, IBD in a boa meant stargazing, regurges and death. While that's not what the studies said, it was selectively parsed from the research and has been parroted on just about every website ver since. The fact is that for years and years, researchers have known that a large percentage of certain boid species can carry the disease indefinitely without exhibiting symptoms.

Case in point - it has been universally trumpeted that any regius afflicted with IBD dies quickly. Fact is that more and more people are finding that other boid species can carry the disease asymptomatically for an unknown period of time.

Until a cost effective screening test is available that people will use and breeders will consent to utilize to screen their animals, we aren't going to ever know exactly which species can carry the disease asymptomatically. The community hasn't really supported this research and, as I said before, some of the biggest names in the business are on record saying that IBD really doesn't exist.

[JLC]

Barker and Barker, BALL PYTHONS: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding 2006

That's a pretty old report to put a lot of stock in at this time. I've got nothing but respect for the Barkers, but not a lot is known about IBD still today...more and more is being learned every year. Our understanding of the disease is evolving and what was understood in 2006 should not necessarily be taken as gospel fact today.

Alex, you made reference to the Barker's. They are not vets, they are not researchers. They are snake breeders.

To say the Barkers are "just snake breeders" is like saying Gordon Ramsey is "just a cook." The Barkers both have advanced degrees in biology sciences and have spent many years working in the field and doing tremendous amounts of research on animals around the world. They not only have successfully published books, but also articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals. You do yourself a disservice to dismiss what they say simply because they are "just snake breeders".

I do appreciate what you're saying about IBD, though. I, too, get very tired of the boogeyman aspect of the disease and the tremendous amount of misinformation that is thrown about as hard fact. The fact is, still far too little is known about the disease. You give some anecdotal evidence of pythons being asymptomatic carriers of the disease, but did not give any actual proof. Yet, even that is now being declared as "fact" in this thread. It happens on all sides of the IBD arguments.

[Skiploder]

This is the problem with IBD

no two groups of people can give the same answer on it.

Vets say its fatal within months in pythons, and fatal within the same time for BABY boas.

Then you have researchers saying that it can stick around for years without showing then kill

so, for now... I am only going to believe what EXTREMELY experienced staff from RTB.net have told me

Until proven otherwise I take their word over anybody elses to be honest.

Most vets don't know their butts from holes in the ground. Neither do us pet owners. You are going to get several answers on this question if you are intent on asking people who get their information second hand on it.

You can put an end to all this and ask the questions from Dr. Jacobson directly. Why take anyone else's word on it? Why deal with someone else's interpretation of the data he's presented?

[JLC]

The short answer to your question is who knows? The researchers are sorely underfunded and the community has been pathetic in helping them.
...
The problem is people often don't find out why their pet snake has died, into the trash it goes. As more and more people are becoming educated on this, more and more people are opting for necropsies and histologies on deceased animals.
...
Until a cost effective screening test is available that people will use and breeders will consent to utilize to screen their animals, we aren't going to ever know exactly which species can carry the disease asymptomatically. The community hasn't really supported this research and, as I said before, some of the biggest names in the business are on record saying that IBD really doesn't exist.

To all of this I must whole-heartedly agree.

[MikeV]

That's a pretty old report to put a lot of stock in at this time. I've got nothing but respect for the Barkers, but not a lot is known about IBD still today...more and more is being learned every year. Our understanding of the disease is evolving and what was understood in 2006 should not necessarily be taken as gospel fact today.



To say the Barkers are "just snake breeders" is like saying Gordon Ramsey is "just a cook." The Barkers both have advanced degrees in biology sciences and have spent many years working in the field and doing tremendous amounts of research on animals around the world. They not only have successfully published books, but also articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals. You do yourself a disservice to dismiss what they say simply because they are "just snake breeders".

I do appreciate what you're saying about IBD, though. I, too, get very tired of the boogeyman aspect of the disease and the tremendous amount of misinformation that is thrown about as hard fact. The fact is, still far too little is known about the disease. You give some anecdotal evidence of pythons being asymptomatic carriers of the disease, but did not give any actual proof. Yet, even that is now being declared as "fact" in this thread. It happens on all sides of the IBD arguments.

Agreed 100%

IBD is going to be one of those guessing game diseases for a long time.

I pray that more funding and research goes into this disease, but truthfully the government isn't exactly on the side of the "snake people" and we aren't all rich, money cant be dished out left right and center.

Think about it... there are diseases that are a GRAVE concern to us, and even those diseases we know little to nothing about. Now imagine IBD.. a disease that affects animals that a majority of people are against... yeah I think thats all that needs to be said


Skiploder: I agree with you. If I asked several sources id get completely differen't answers. and vets, as you said know just about nothing (well.. the usual vet) when it comes to IBD.

I think im going to contact Dr. Jacobson and have a chat with him about it. I would love to have an intellectual discussion with somebody who is on the "front lines" so to speak

Thanks!

[Skiploder]

That's a pretty old report to put a lot of stock in at this time. I've got nothing but respect for the Barkers, but not a lot is known about IBD still today...more and more is being learned every year. Our understanding of the disease is evolving and what was understood in 2006 should not necessarily be taken as gospel fact today.



To say the Barkers are "just snake breeders" is like saying Gordon Ramsey is "just a cook." The Barkers both have advanced degrees in biology sciences and have spent many years working in the field and doing tremendous amounts of research on animals around the world. They not only have successfully published books, but also articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals. You do yourself a disservice to dismiss what they say simply because they are "just snake breeders".

I do appreciate what you're saying about IBD, though. I, too, get very tired of the boogeyman aspect of the disease and the tremendous amount of misinformation that is thrown about as hard fact. The fact is, still far too little is known about the disease. You give some anecdotal evidence of pythons being asymptomatic carriers of the disease, but did not give any actual proof. Yet, even that is now being declared as "fact" in this thread. It happens on all sides of the IBD arguments.

Judy:

As far as my quoted statement stands - I thinks it's fair in the context of this discussion. Whatever else they've done for this community, their stance on IBD or the information they present should not be taken over that of someone actively treating or researching it.

[Skiploder]

To all of this I must whole-heartedly agree.

With regards to pythons and being asymptomatic:

It has been established and accepted that boas can remain asymptomatic for an unknown amount of time even after developing inclusion bodies and that after showing symptoms, they can survive for an as of yet unknown period of time.

It is commonly thought that pythons, once they are symptomatic, die quickly. The key word being "symptomatic". How long and whether or not they can be asymptomatic for an indefinite period of time has not been established but as more and more people are testing their animals, more an more incidences are arising casting serious aspersions on the old parameters of the disease.

It has not been established or conclusively defined as to how soon after contracting inclusion bodies a ball pythons will begin exhibiting symptoms. Therefore, in contrast to all of the care sheets giving a definitive timeline, I am cautioning that NO ONE really knows.

For many years, web accounts painted a picture of both boas and pythons rapidly succumbing to this disease. As time has gone by, the boa part of the equation has been redefined and we found out that the opposite is often the rule, not the exception. As more time goes by, the picture on the various python species will become more clear.

As for as offering no proof, I would suggest you go back and re-read my posts concerning IBD from a couple of years ago and see exactly how this discussion has morphed. Back then I had to convince a lot of people I wasn't full of crap in that I had snakes that apparently had harbored this disease for an extended period of time.

Now that point is moot because the community has generally accepted it. Most people reading this thread would have a hard time believing that, in light of all we know today, that someone would have thought that claim so far-fetched.

[Skiploder]

Agreed 100%

IBD is going to be one of those guessing game diseases for a long time.

I pray that more funding and research goes into this disease, but truthfully the government isn't exactly on the side of the "snake people" and we aren't all rich, money cant be dished out left right and center.

Think about it... there are diseases that are a GRAVE concern to us, and even those diseases we know little to nothing about. Now imagine IBD.. a disease that affects animals that a majority of people are against... yeah I think thats all that needs to be said


Skiploder: I agree with you. If I asked several sources id get completely differen't answers. and vets, as you said know just about nothing (well.. the usual vet) when it comes to IBD.

I think im going to contact Dr. Jacobson and have a chat with him about it. I would love to have an intellectual discussion with somebody who is on the "front lines" so to speak

Thanks!

'
Mike:

Courtney (americanwmn) on RTB has corresponded with Dr. J also. When I get to work on Monday I can send you copies of my correspondence with him. Courtney would probably do the same if you asked her.

I think that you will find that Dr. Jacobson doesn't have answers to a lot of our questions because the answers aren't yet known.

Once you see what he can and can't answer, and compare it to the context of some of what we have often accepted as absolute and unshakeable truths, you'll see what I mean.