Let's Clear Some Stuff Up About IBD

[Skiploder]

I'm starting to see the same things stated over and over again about IBD. Namely that it's universally quick and fatal in pythons and that neurological symptoms are the calling card.

While I am far from an expert on IBD, I did deal with it in my collection and I documented as much here. During that ordeal, I was able to correspond with Dr. Elliot Jacobson and talk directly to vets at UC Davis about the disease.

Without dredging up too much history and repeating what I've posted in previous threads, I had two dwarf locality boas with the disease. One presented with mild anorexia and other subclinical symptoms. The other never showed a single symptom.

After failing to be able to resolve any of the former snake's subclinical ailments, my vet took a series of live biopsies, culminating in one of the esophageal tonsils. The histology came back positive for IBD.

At the time, I was heavily into other boid species including aspidites, antaresia and I even had a couple of ball pythons. At great expense, I had tests run on the majority of my animals. The only animal that was also harboring the disease was the boa's mate.

How could that be? The common forum geniuses had assured me that IBD kills and kills quickly. The on-line know it alls had also pointed out numerous care sheets written by other forums mensas that assured me that it spreads like wildfire and that my snakes should all be corkscrewing and stargazing.

Well, when I talked to actual vets and researchers I found that IBD can be present indefinitely without showing any symptoms. I found out that more often than not, it presents itself not with a series of in your face neurological issues, but as stubborn subclinical infections such as mouth rout, RI, gastritis, etc.

I was informed in an email from Dr. J himself (which I shared with some people on this site) that due to the difficulty in screening for the disease and the length of time it can remain dormant, that you can't set a QT period. In the case of my two boas, one remained an asymptomatic carrier for over 7 years.

I was also informed that the carrier rate of asymptomatic boids could run over 30% and that healthy control animals sent to U of F from breeders tested positive for the disease.

After being excoriated by several boa big wigs, I have pretty much kept my mouth shut.

However before we frighten a whole new crop of forum newbies with the dreaded IBD boogeyman, let's make sure that we all understand a couple of things:

(1) IBD more often times than not does NOT present with neurological symptoms.

(2) Animals can carry IBD for an indefinite period of time.

(3) Animals do not always succumb quickly. The idea that a ball python collection is safe with a 90 day quarantine simply isn't true.

Now with regard to ball pythons, my son's godfather is a school teacher who has a ball python as a class room pet. That snake is probably 9 or ten years old.

Since Chris has had the snake, he has never even been kept in the same room as another reptile. The snake has been with Chris since it was a neonate.

Some time in 2009 or 2010, this ball python developed an RI. It was cultured and treated. It then was afflicted with mouth rot, another RI and then a skin infection.

While Chris does not go to our vet, he goes to another vet who may be one of the best in the country. This vet immediately performed a series of biopsies. The culprit - IBD.

Chris made the decision to not euthanize the animal. I don't know the exact time period, but the snake has been living with symptomatic IBD for over a year and was most likely asymptomatic for at least 9.

This is a ball python. Not a boa. A ball python. When Chris told me about what was going on with "Stretch", I talked to my vet. Sure enough, she has treated many pythons species who have similar back stories. Yes I know that flies in the face of what many people have read on Anapsid and other regurge sites, but if you stay current with the disease you'll find that it just isn't universally fatal in pythons.

From an article Dr. Jacobsen recently wrote:

"Snakes make up approximately 19% of all reptiles kept as pets. Of these, boa constrictors and pythons - especially ball pythons - are bred in large numbers for the pet trade. Because many IBD-infected boid snakes may not show outward signs of the disease, infected snakes considered healthy have been sold. We do not know what percentage of snakes infected with IBD will develop clinical symptoms and how many will remain clinically healthy. It is possible that latent infections can persist for long periods.


My own correspondence with Dr. J confirmed the same thing. As I stated earlier, I already shared that with people on this forum, including a mod or two.

We need to stop screaming IBD every time someone's snake does something a bit odd. We also need to stop telling people that if they've had a python more than 3 months and it's healthy that it's free of the disease.

A fine line exists between providing a clear picture of IBD and hysteria. While we should all be concerned about the disease and it's ability to remain undercover so long (and the ramifications of that ability) we also need to not freak people out about it.

As my vet told me, when a snake with neurological symptoms is presented to her, IBD is one of about a dozen things that enter her mind. The trick is that she is a vet and can attempt to diagnose and treat the other 11 things that are more common and often more probable.

None of us are vets, and while we should continue to help people who come here with problems, we need to be extra careful in the advice we dole out.

[thewesterngate]

I'm glad to hear something like this, from someone with experience. IBD has become the boogeyman, like Cryptosporidium in Leos and Chytrid in frogs.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post.

[Sammy412]

I remember, when the green burmese morph came about, and the "story" then was ALL green burms are doomed to die from respiratory disease. And I'm sure many did, because they were new and inexperienced keepers didn't know proper husbandry, or not going to the vet soon enough. This "fact" also was extended to some of the other morps, such as labyrinth and granite.

[kitedemon]

Skip,
That is very interesting but it contradicts what I have understood completely.

"... (IBD) is believed to be caused by a retrovirus. This disease is usually passed from snake to snake by mites, but it can be spread through contact. Inclusion Body disease can be contracted by boas and pythons. It is always fatal. In pythons IBD quickly progresses to infect the brain and typically results in death within two to four months. In boas, the disease tends to infect all the organs of the body before reaching the endgame brain infection, so infected boas may live more than two years without showing symptoms."

Barker and Barker, BALL PYTHONS: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding 2006

I have a second reference here someplace I'll post it as soon as I can locate it. I am not discounting what you say at all, but I have understood that boas and pythons respond differently to this disease. I don't believe it is common as everyone wants it to be as according to the information I had kills quickly and requires direct contact (like pet stores often have)

[Skiploder]

Skip,
That is very interesting but it contradicts what I have understood completely.

"... (IBD) is believed to be caused by a retrovirus. This disease is usually passed from snake to snake by mites, but it can be spread through contact. Inclusion Body disease can be contracted by boas and pythons. It is always fatal. In pythons IBD quickly progresses to infect the brain and typically results in death within two to four months. In boas, the disease tends to infect all the organs of the body before reaching the endgame brain infection, so infected boas may live more than two years without showing symptoms."

Barker and Barker, BALL PYTHONS: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding 2006

I have a second reference here someplace I'll post it as soon as I can locate it. I am not discounting what you say at all, but I have understood that boas and pythons respond differently to this disease. I don't believe it is common as everyone wants it to be as according to the information I had kills quickly and requires direct contact (like pet stores often have)

As I have previously stated, Dr. Jacobson who is one of the foremost researchers on this disease has flat out stated that it lay dormant indefinitely and that it's far more common than we think.

Alex, you made reference to the Barker's. They are not vets, they are not researchers. They are snake breeders.

I can provide you a link to one of the foremost breeders of boas flat out stating in an interview that he believes IBD does not exist.

Any info coming from a breeder and not a researcher should be taken with a whole shaker of salt. Likewise any papers that are older than three or four years probably are outdated in terms of this disease.

[jbean7916]

I was under the impression that IBD could only be diagnosed AFTER the snake had died. Is this incorrect? My spider bp is prone to fairly consistant RI's and we can't seem to get them to clear up all the way, I'm afraid to do a more aggressive antibiotics treatment since hes already been through 2 rounds. I wonder if this might be the cause since his husbandtry is the same as the rest of my collection.

sent from my EVO

[Skiploder]

I was under the impression that IBD could only be diagnosed AFTER the snake had died. Is this incorrect? My spider bp is prone to fairly consistant RI's and we can't seem to get them to clear up all the way, I'm afraid to do a more aggressive antibiotics treatment since hes already been through 2 rounds. I wonder if this might be the cause since his husbandtry is the same as the rest of my collection.

sent from my EVO

It's the most accurate way. However it can be diagnosed with live tissue biopsies from target organs.

Problem is that even a negative test does not mean your snake is clear - it just means that it wasn't in the area where the biopsy was performed. For example, we initially took liver biopsies which came back negative. The esophageal tonsil biopsy came back positive. If we had stopped at the liver, we would have incorrectly assumed my snakes were clear.

Dr. Jacobson's group recently developed a blood test for the disease. It's my understanding that a negative result from this test also does not clear you of the disease.

Our view of this disease has progressed rapidly in the last few years, so info from 2002 is fairly outdated.

As for your snake, has the vet cultured the bacteria responsible for the RI? There are several resistant strains out there that need to be cultured for antibiotic sensitivity.

[Skiploder]

A survey by Garner and Raymond (2004) determined
its prevalence among the different boid species examined
postmortem at Northwest ZooPath (Monroe, USA). The
prevalence was especially high in Boa constrictor subspecies
(>33 per cent) and in the tree boa,Corallus annulatus (28 per
cent).

From https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

Outdated study, but 33% of BCI tested postmortem were carriers. I'd call 33% pretty prevalent.

[DemmBalls]

Thanks for sharing!

So, esentially there is nothing you can do to prevent this disease? It will either show up or it won't?

[kitedemon]

I believe the Barkers both have degrees in biology and both worked in (I don't recall which one) zoos with snakes, they both have published in journals. I tend to take their book as it is researched and referenced as well as any journal I have ever read. I am not questioning you or Dr E. Jacobson either. I have not had time to read the 2 papers I have found in addition to your posted link yet but much of the research is done with Boidea isn't it? I understood that they could be a passive carrier and carry with no symptoms for long periods of time, but Royals have not currently been found to be carriers but show symptoms quickly. I read this somewhere and as much as I hate it I cannot figure out where that was. My brief read (I have not had time to read in depth yet) (http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/de...JExoticPet.pdf)

that the article mentions "Boa constrictors affected by IBD also regurgitated food items within several days of feeding, in addition to the CNS disease signs described for pythons"

My understanding is that when it attacks the CNS neurological signs are rapid and evident. Is this incorrect? I could not find an reference to it. I don't have enough knowledge to make meaningful points at all. I have questions with out answers.

Has there been studies done on Royals and IBD or is it limited to Boidea?

Have there been documented cases of IBD in Royals that carry no outward signs?

When IBD enters CNS is there neurological issues?

Has there been Royals showing signs of IBD but with no CNS involvement?

I am not saying I have accurate information. I am not saying the information presented is not absolutely correct. I am saying does it apply to Royal Pythons the same way? I know boidea can carry IBD for ages I know of one whom has. What I don't know and have not seen any reference pointed to a meaningful study that Royals can carry the disease without outward symptoms. Do you have one?