What do I do about a pet store that is taking poor care of BPs?

[Superpop]

I started a thread about this pet store in the past over an adult BP(which is now no longer there) and people attacked me. I am by no means some "expert" but I now know enough about BPs to see poor conditions!

Before people attack me and pretend like I am just stupid because my boyfriend and I have only owned a snake for 9 months...

We have run into problems with our ball python and have corrected them(that is what this forum is for!)

Our snake now has:

2 thermometers both with probes that are right next to both of her identical hides on each side. Warm side: 89-91 Cool side 79-81

Humidity: 50-60% raised with spraying when she is shedding(and her last shed was a perfect 1 piece shed)

Her poop and urates are removed as soon as they are spotted.(and we check everyday)

Her water is changed everyday(she gets brita filtered water just like we drink)

She has aspen bedding and it is changed once a month(when we clean her enclosue)

She eats almost every single time we feed her.


I am not claiming to be some expert by any means but I now feel I have the authority to claim OBVIOUS NEGLECT when I see it!

We went to the pet store in question tonight again to purchase Frozen Hoppers for our BP named Snickers. That is the ONLY reason we go to this pet store because their frozen mice are so much cheaper than Petco or Petsmart because they buy them in bulk and the mice are not individually packaged.

What we noticed this time was even worse than the adult BP from the other thread:

It was a baby BP this time.

No thermometers, no hygrometer, NO HIDES...not even 1

What it had was:

a screen top

a UV light heat source(which probably remains on 24/7 considering it is the ONLY heat source...so much for "darkness")

a water dish

a small bit of reptile carpet that only covered half the the small enclosure.

THAT IS IT!

The water dish was round and shoved into the corner of the enclosure and the baby BP had wrapped herself in a weird looking tangled knot in that corner next to the water dish trying to hide her face from the light because she has no hides and the bright light which is her only heat source probably remains on 24/7!

I know I am not some ball python expert but this is PATHETIC treatment by the store and I am tired of it!

All the reptiles in the store have screened lids with only UV light heat sources, no temp or humidity measuring devices!(including corn snakes, geckos, and savannah monitors)

According to google reviews of this store they also get all their dogs from puppy mills!

With the other thread I stated about this store I got attacked after getting advice from someone telling me to contact the ASPCA(I said I would and then got attacked because of information about the ASPCA concerning snakes I didn't have any knowledge of)

Even if I can purchase cheaper frozen mice at this store doesn't mean their treatment of animals in general doesn't alarm me! I would rather pay twice as much from another store to feed our snake than to let this crap I see in the store continue!

I got bashed in "the other thread I stared about this same pet store for not being an "EXPERT" http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...t-to-rescue-it) but I freely admit I am not some expert...

I feel I am able to spot piss poor treatment from a pet store at this point though!


If I shouldn't contact the ASPCA do to their stance on snake ownership WHO should I contact about the store then????????

[sparticus]

Hi there,

I haven't had time to go read the previous thread you are mentioning but I will do so right after I post this. Great job for being a responsible snake owner and getting your husbandry on point... it pays off right? (no stuck shed, regular eating, happy snake).

(she gets brita filtered water just like we drink)

MINE DO TOO LOL!!!

Anyway, I do not know what store you are talking about but I am guessing it is Petland. They are known for getting their puppies from puppy mills and for me that sort of sets the precedence of their ethical treatment towards all the animals in their store. (if they don't mind that they are getting sick puppies from deplorable conditions then why would they care about spending the time/money on making sure the husbandry is correct on their reptiles).... To any non-reptile person they wouldn't know that this set-up is not okay and therefore wouldn't say or think anything of it.

My suggestion would be to talk to the store manager about your concerns in a constructive, non condescending way. Maybe they would be glad to have your help/advice.

If that doesn't work move to plan B.

(we'll figure out what that is if need be). Good Luck.

But when confronting them about it, you aren't going to get anywhere if you tell them they are horrible and mean and bad etc. Assume the best about them (that they really are just ignorant and would be happy to learn the correct way) - whether or not this is true- but it gives you a better way to approach the situation.

Good Luck.

[sparticus]

Ok,

I just went back and read that whole thread...

wow.

i was surprised how volatile it got ... I have never seen any threads like it thus far!

I don't know what PMs were exchanged and what you and the other guy who lives in your city figured out about that adult BP but here is my take on this CURRENT situation now AFTER reading that thread...

You seem to have gotten your husbandry on point and learned a lot from the members on here. While the conditions you DESCRIBED (I can only go off of your description) of this current snake are definitely not IDEAL - they are not

piss poor

like you said.

piss poor

would be feces and urine/urates everywhere, no water, no heat, obvious signs of infection/mites/RI, underfed/not fed, and/or open wounds from live feedings. Something like that- would be an IMMEDIATE cause for conern. While the conditions you described of this current snake are nowhere near being that bad they are certainly not life threatening (imho)... but first you need to get all your facts before doing anything. Maybe they do have temp/humidity gauges but you just can't see them, maybe they just got the snake and haven't set up it's tank properly yet. WHO KNOWS? - but the only way to tell is to get all your facts before jumping to conclusions. Strike up a casual conversation with an employee about the snake... and get the facts.

I really really hope that this thread doesn't turn out like the last one!! so for future posters.... realize that the OP genuinely has their heart in the right place- they want the best conditions for this bp.

[mommanessy247]

yup sparticus said it...
i personally always go the passive way first, by talking directly to the offending person before going over their head to their boss or whoever.
in this situation your either gonna get 1 of 2 reactions from them when you do mention your concerns about the animals, specifically that bp.
1) they could get defensive and ask you where & how you came about YOUR knowledge and basically hint at telling you that they know more simply because they are the one's running the pet store. in this case they will shut you down before you can even get your concerns across. OR...
2) they could appreciate your concern and might even ask for your advice on what they need to correct...but do keep in mind that all places of business, unless otherwise stated, are in the business of making a profit off whatever they sell whether it be products, animals, services, etc. so with this in mind, they're gonna hear what your saying as far as the corrections they need to make but their mind is gonna be going "how much is that gonna cost?"

i've actually been told by someone that they'd rather give the basic minimum in care knowing that someone will make a "pity purchase" instead of spend the whatever extra in upkeep costs that might be more then the actual cost of the animal.
in that case i was like "are you serious?! please dont tell me you have kids at home cuz if you handle your place of business like this, providing the bare minimum in care, do you do that with your kids as well? good god man, cheap isnt ALWAYS better."
so thats my take on the whole thing...the major point being express your concerns in as friendly a way as possible, even if the conditions in question make you wanna ring their necks.
you can start by saying "i noticed some things about this bp's set up that concerns me a little. do you have a minute to speak with me about it?"
that lets them know your concerned without coming across as an attack.
if they are willing to listen to your suggestions i'd first ask them where they got their knowledge of bp setup/care. listen to them carefully, without interrupting, and then go through your knowledge of bp setup and care and tell them where and how you got your knowledge and let them notice the differences. if they dont seem to "get it" and are insisting that their "source" is better or that they've been doing this for x amount of years, simply ask them an A, B or C scenario question, like
"would you rather sell a healthy animal and maintain a good flow of customers and a good reputation, take the chance of an animal possibly dying here and therefore end up with a loss of a potential profit, or have a sick animal die after being sold and end up with an angry customer who's demanding their money back and in that process you'll lose customers because your reputations gone down the crapper?"
if THAT doesnt wake them up then honestly...i'm all outta suggestions.

[Skittles1101]

Wow you really were ripped into in that last thread, I have NEVER seen anything like that in this forum. This is obviously a very touchy subject for some, and even with my semi-new hands on experience (I've been around snakes since I was young, just never kept them myself until recently) I'd do what I felt was right. People are going to have different opinions on the matter obviously, but you are the only one who actually saw these conditions. If it seems to be a habit, which it sounds like it is given this is the second snake you are reporting, then do what you feel is right. Whether it's speaking to the employees or reporting to the BBB or animal advocacies. Only you can know what the right thing to do is for what you saw. I'd personally take the passive way, like the others said, but only you know if it's an immediate threat or not.

[Andy_G]

From your description alone, I would not say that the conditions were ideal, however I have been in pet stores that kept their animals in a lot worse conditions. If it were me, I would simply do business else where if you don't like their business and husbandry practices. There is no sense in "rewarding" a business buy shoping with them if you don't like what you see going on in there.

[muddoc]

I have one question and one response. Did you buy your rodents from them that day? If so, quit buying the store's product. The only way they stay open is by turning a profit. If you do not support their knowledge and husbandry, then quit supporting their business. I would be willing to bet that you could order your own frozen rodent for the smae price or cheaper than you are paying them.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Have you try to to educate them YET?

You brought this up before yet previously there was NO solid proof of neglect and you were ALREADY told than that EDUCATION would go a long way compare to jumping the guns and making a report.

So what steps have you been taking toward improving those conditions?

Now if there is neglect and again I don't have proof that there is, why do you keep giving them your business, by giving them your business YOU are supporting the neglect (if neglect) going on at that place.

BTW if no hide, no thermomether, no hygrometer or water dish too small to soak (like in your previous thread) constitute neglect than I and many others are in big trouble


Talk to them, educate them and see where that goes.

If thing don't change stop giving them your business if what is going there is SO terrible because if it really bother you, you do not want to support their business do you?

[Kymberli]

I'll repeat what I just said in your other thread, please try to educate them before getting angry! I understand this chain of pet stores is well known for problems with their up-keeping, but as I said before, constructive criticism is usually better than anything else!

And if you genuinely have a problem with this store, do NOT purchase anything from them, even if it does save you a bit of money. There's nothing worse than supporting a store that should no be. As has been said in an above post, they thrive on your purchases.. spend the extra money to support a good store. Personally, I support WF Reptiles near me, family owned and ran, very small, very knowledgeable and VERY kind.

[Inknsteel]

I refrained from posting in the other thread hoping someone would bring up a few things that I haven't seen come up yet...

First, you are making reference to the caresheet here on this site. Yes, it's a great caresheet and does lay down some guidelines for IDEAL husbandry for new snake OWNERS. The caresheet here is by no means LAW, nor does it state anywhere that this is the only right way to do things.

You have to also understand that you are dealing with a STORE, not an individual snake keeper. They aren't in the business of snake keeping, and as such, aren't going to go through the time, effort and expense of setting up individual tanks or tubs for each animal, making sure they have two hides, probed thermometers and hygrometers, etc. They will put the snake in an available tank to display for customers. In their ideal scenario, that snake will be there the shortest amount of time possible before going to what is hopefully a permanent home. The fact that there is a water dish, a heat source of some kind, and only one snake in the enclosure is a big step ahead of some of these stores I've heard about. Is this the ideal setup for long term care? Nope. Is this considered "deplorable conditions"? Not even close. If that were the case, you'd have to report pretty much every pet store in existence...

If you don't like the conditions of the animals, simply do not support the business with your dollars. But I don't think it would be in ANYONE'S interest to take such drastic action simply because you don't deem their husbandry to be worthy of your standards. If you feel like putting that much time and energy into fighting for better conditions for that animal, your efforts would be better spent trying to educate than anything.