Clutch size concerning co-doms

[Python Dreams]

But do Pastels sell easier then Het Albinos? I would think so... Do they sell for more than Het Albinos? I thinks so.... How much were Het Albinos five years ago?

I have quite a few Pastel 100% Het for Albinos from Super Pastel Albino breedings. At the shows I have been to, I have had just about 0 interest. One girl wanted a Pastel and said mine was better looking, but did not want to pay extra (I had a very decent price). It not only takes money to buy the snake, but you have to put trust into another breeder when you buy hets, and we have seen plenty of people take advantage of that. To add about visual recessives, I had no problems moving my Pastel Albinos. Just my experience.

[ms381]

Robin, I think it's just a myth to keep people behind in the game. I've bred females at 18-20 months with great results. I think size is the important factor when breeding. I've had plenty of females breed at 20-30 months old and have clutch sizes grow year after year. Just have to keep them feeding and feed them as much as they'll eat when they do.

i posted a thread about an in depth study of ball python populations in Ghana a while back, part of the study was measuring and weighing females who had produced eggs and were incubating them. The results showed females were between 1200_1800 grams with many of them below 1500 grams (if i remember correctly). I know it is a wild study and the pythons are just doing what instictivley comes to them so are reproducing sooner, but it shows at what size females can produce eggs successfully. And i believe more eggs would come with age and size, thats just nature doing what nature does best.

[mainbutter]

You have a point, but at the same time look at het super pastel (pastel) prices now compared to what they were five years ago. People are pretty much giving them away now.

On the one hand, I also want to say: Look at het albinos. People are pretty much giving them away.. especially male hets.

On the other hand, most pastels these days look like crap, which I believe is causing poor prices. Pairing a male pastel with the cheapest normal brown females you can find will make poor looking pastels. A good looking pastel female hatchling still can command $200. While some may snub their nose at $200, that's far from "giving an animal away for free".

In addition, if you look at hatchling female pastel prices from 08, and compare them to a 1000-1500g female pastel today (likely an 08), you'll see that as the animal grew, it gained value.

I'd say there still is perceived market value in pastels.

[Brandon Osborne]

i posted a thread about an in depth study of ball python populations in Ghana a while back, part of the study was measuring and weighing females who had produced eggs and were incubating them. The results showed females were between 1200_1800 grams with many of them below 1500 grams (if i remember correctly). I know it is a wild study and the pythons are just doing what instictivley comes to them so are reproducing sooner, but it shows at what size females can produce eggs successfully. And i believe more eggs would come with age and size, thats just nature doing what nature does best.

So are you saying that those females that produced at 1200 grams would produce larger clutches with size and age....or that they should be given more time to grow to produce larger clutches later on. I believe it balances out and the number of eggs when bred early will equal to those that are not bred until 3 years.

[Brandon Osborne]

On the one hand, I also want to say: Look at het albinos. People are pretty much giving them away.. especially male hets.

On the other hand, most pastels these days look like crap, which I believe is causing poor prices. Pairing a male pastel with the cheapest normal brown females you can find will make poor looking pastels. A good looking pastel female hatchling still can command $200. While some may snub their nose at $200, that's far from "giving an animal away for free".

In addition, if you look at hatchling female pastel prices from 08, and compare them to a 1000-1500g female pastel today (likely an 08), you'll see that as the animal grew, it gained value.

I'd say there still is perceived market value in pastels.

I agree.....if it's a quality pastel. Quality will always sell, and at a higher price. We recently sold a femal super pastel for 2X market value because it's the nicest super pastel we have ever seen. As the old saying goes....you get what you pay for.

[ace_singapore]

Robin, I think it's just a myth to keep people behind in the game. I've bred females at 18-20 months with great results. I think size is the important factor when breeding. I've had plenty of females breed at 20-30 months old and have clutch sizes grow year after year. Just have to keep them feeding and feed them as much as they'll eat when they do.

Hi, how heavy is your female at 18-20 month old and at 20-30 month old? And their clutch size? TIA.

[Brandon Osborne]

Hi, how heavy is your female at 18-20 month old and at 20-30 month old? And their clutch size? TIA.

2003 Het Pied first breeding in 2005 at roughly 20 months(all clutches had large eggs.)
2005 @2800-3000 grams=9 eggs
2006 @3000-3200 grams=8 eggs
2007 @3500 grams=9 eggs
2008 @4000 grams=11 eggs
2009 @5000 grams=13 eggs
2010 @5000-5500 grams=13 eggs 1 slug

2005 Pied first breeding in 2008 at 30 months
2008 @1600 grams=5 eggs
2009 @1800-2000 grams 6 eggs
2010 @2000 grams 6 eggs

2006 Pewter first breeding in 2008 at 20-24 months
2008 @1200-1400 grams=5 eggs
2009 @1600-1800 grams=7 eggs
2010 @2000-2200 grams=8 eggs

2008 Pastel het Pied first breeding 2010 at 18-20 months.
2010 @1200-1400 grams=5 eggs

2008 Pastel het Pied first breeding 2010 at 18-20 months.
2010 @1200-1400 grams=3 very large eggs.

I'll go through my records and see what else I can find. I have a couple of Pewter het Pied girls from 2009 I'm thinking of trying this year. They are right at 1000 grams now. It may be late in the season though. I'm interested in seeing what results others are getting.

[Chris Knowles]

2003 Het Pied first breeding in 2005 at roughly 20 months(all clutches had large eggs.)
2005 @2800-3000 grams=9 eggs

Was your 0.1 Het Pied power fed to be 2800g in 2 years?

[Brandon Osborne]

Was your 0.1 Het Pied power fed to be 2800g in 2 years?

Not one bit. Everything is fed one rodent per week. If there are any leftovers, the larger females get another if they want it. Though I don't believe you can power feed growing babies. They eat to survive.

[Wh00h0069]

But do Pastels sell easier then Het Albinos? I would think so... Do they sell for more than Het Albinos? I thinks so.... How much were Het Albinos five years ago?

I have quite a few Pastel 100% Het for Albinos from Super Pastel Albino breedings. At the shows I have been to, I have had just about 0 interest. One girl wanted a Pastel and said mine was better looking, but did not want to pay extra (I had a very decent price). It not only takes money to buy the snake, but you have to put trust into another breeder when you buy hets, and we have seen plenty of people take advantage of that. To add about visual recessives, I had no problems moving my Pastel Albinos. Just my experience.

Yes, pastels do sell for more than male het albinos, but around the same price as females hets. But then again, it is easier / cheaper to reproduce pastels than it is albinos from a het. It just seems to me that so many people are mass producing pastels, that they are hard to sell unless you lower your price. Why would someone buy from x breeder for x amount when they can get it for cheaper buy hundreds of other breeders? I predict this to happen to every codom morph, eventually. Their prices have been dropping drastically, and I can see why. Supply and demand. They are too easy to mass produce.

I am surprised that you did not have any interest in your pastel het albinos, unless they were males. I sold all of my pastel het ghost females very quickly, but no one was interested in the males. This is for the same reason is it is tough to sell het males for anything but normal prices. There is no use for them. You have much better odds of producing a visual by breeding a visual to a het. Since one male can breed multiple females, it only makes sense to breed one visual male to multiple het females. It is more cost efficient this way.

On the one hand, I also want to say: Look at het albinos. People are pretty much giving them away.. especially male hets.

On the other hand, most pastels these days look like crap, which I believe is causing poor prices. Pairing a male pastel with the cheapest normal brown females you can find will make poor looking pastels. A good looking pastel female hatchling still can command $200. While some may snub their nose at $200, that's far from "giving an animal away for free".

In addition, if you look at hatchling female pastel prices from 08, and compare them to a 1000-1500g female pastel today (likely an 08), you'll see that as the animal grew, it gained value.

I'd say there still is perceived market value in pastels.

I have heard this argument before, and it does make sense. However, this is not always the case. There are so many people out there that think about money before the quality of the animal before purchasing. They want a pastel, but want to find the best deal. Many people are not willing to pay extra for a better looking pastel. Now this may be different for higher priced morphs, but not normally for pastels because they are too easy to acquire. So many people are breeding them.

In my opinion, the only way to make money on pastels is to create combos with then, and visual simple recessive / pastel are going to hold their value a lot longer than codom / codom combos.