Breeding a spider with a severe wobble

[BPelizabeth]

Oh these threads are really frustrating. As Robin and cinderbird stated....ALL spiders have a degree of wobble or corkscrew. It is usually more when they are stressed or excited. As well as sometimes it comes and goes. There is NO NO NO proof or experience that shows a bad wobble with throw a bad wobble. Quite the opposite we have seen bad wobblers throw low wobbs and vice versa.

The bottom line is that the spider gene is instrumental in so many amazing morphs ...you accept it and learn to love the other qualities it has.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I guess my feeling is, if there is even the slightest, most remote chance that the neurologic derangements can be selected against, then we as breeders have a responsibility to try. To throw in the towel after one or two generations of failed attempts at selecting against it and just say, "Oh well, it's random, ya might as well breed this upside town spinning top trainwreck snake since it's all the same gene" just seems ........ Bleh.

Kind of like how English bulldog breeders have just accepted that bulldogs can't free whelp and will all have brachycephalic syndrome, and some Quarterhorse breeders are totally ok with breeding HYPP positive, etc., etc..

And I HATE telling people that they're being irresponsible, because I HATE "forum jockeys" (very many on snake forums, but there are TONS on some small mammal forums) who think that their excrement smells like a bouquet ... So I won't go off on too much of a tangent on that. You do what you want with your snakes; as long as you aren't abusing them or neglecting them I'm not going to comment (unless, as in this case, you ask me to).

But I do have a fair amount of knowledge of genetics, so to try and help the OP make an informed breeding decision, I'm going to add my two cents even if it doesn't jive with the accepted conventional wisdom.

I mean, it's tough advice to think about following ... Easy to give, but tough to follow. Not sure what I'll be saying and thinking and doing if in a year from now I'm looking at the most beautiful mojave bumblebee in the world who loves to eat and grows great and can't hold his head upright. I like to think that I'll be calling him the most valuable "pet" I own. ... I like to think that.

[OhhWatALoser]

i'm no breeder (nor do i have any snake breeding knowledge) but i can say that i could not knowingly breed anything that has any kind of defect.

going to pick and choose your defects? Albinos have a defect where they can't produce melanin, all morphs are some sort of defect. your mojave is a defect of some sort....this whole hobby is defective animals lol.

[darkbloodwyvern]

going to pick and choose your defects? Albinos have a defect where they can't produce melanin, all morphs are some sort of defect. your mojave is a defect of some sort....this whole hobby is defective animals lol.

I bet high white pieds get eaten a lot faster in the wild than their low white sibs. So are the low whites defective too, or just less defective? I'm kidding, but also curious... They're both pied, obviously.

[eracer]

I bet high white pieds get eaten a lot faster in the wild than their low white sibs. So are the low whites defective too, or just less defective? I'm kidding, but also curious... They're both pied, obviously.

This speaks to the heart of the question. Nature selects mutations for success or failure based on their ability to survive and procreate - in the wild. Man chooses to remove the environmental pressures inherent in the predator/prey relationship, thus allowing certain mutations to continue because he deems them desirable. Thus, man becomes the arbiter of evolution - to a degree.

Unfortunately, it has been proven throughout history that man is a rotten arbiter of such things, and that unforeseen (and damaging) genetic traits can and do occur in those species that he has genetically manipulated.

The idea that wobbling and the spider morphology are somehow 'natural' is a red herring. It occurs in the wild, but who here really knows whether nature would select it out? I suspect that a neurologic disorder like this in a snake would increase the chance of predation, and reduce the chance that the spider morph would continue as a sub-type. But what do I know.

[reptiledanny]

i am still learning about all the morphs, so please dont have a go at me if this is wrong
the woma ball python is very like the spider ball python, and i read somewhere that they may even be related like the cinnamon and black pastel ball pythons, so surely then then woma is the better of the two becuase it will produce animals very much like the spider (like the bumblebee) but does not contain the spider wobble, is this correct

[Serpent_Nirvana]

The idea that wobbling and the spider morphology are somehow 'natural' is a red herring. It occurs in the wild, but who here really knows whether nature would select it out? I suspect that a neurologic disorder like this in a snake would increase the chance of predation, and reduce the chance that the spider morph would continue as a sub-type. But what do I know.

Not sure who has said they're "natural" ..? I mean, in a way, sure; they weren't created in a laboratory. The first spider mutation did appear without the aid of man. I agree, though, that I think it's very doubtful that they would have survived without man's intervention.

Do I think that means that they shouldn't survive? ... I think the big question is, does the mutation we're propagating negatively affect the animal's quality of life? I don't think having a different paint job gives the animal any lower self-esteem, so for 95% of our morphs that isn't an issue.

Does the spider "wobble" affect the animal's QOL? ... I really don't know. For a large portion of our spiders that have very little neurologic derangement, I would say that no, it doesn't, at least 99% of the time. I cannot, however, say the same for the "train wrecks" that are upside-down most of the time. Maybe it doesn't bother them and they are just as happy as any other captive snake in its safe, warm, secure, well-fed state. Then again maybe they live in a permanent state of malaise and existential frustration; I don't know, I'm not a neuro snake.

@Reptiledanny -- I don't believe, based on what I've read and seen, that the spider and woma are in any way related. They do kinda look similar. I think that the woma is a great alternative for those who are turned off by the spider "wobble." I think, though, that the reason the woma hasn't simply replaced the spider is because, in my opinion (and I don't think I'm alone here) the woma crosses can't hold a candle to the same crosses made with a spider. (Ex: "wannabee" versus bumblebee, etc.) People just seem to like the spider crosses better.