The Pine Debate

[Chuckels]

I did not know that Pine was harmful to rodents. Ive been using Pine in my rodent cages for over 2 years now, and I have never had an issue.

[Punkymom]

Ok. My reply does not have to do with reptiles, but I have been wondering about this for some time. I have kept rabbits in the past. I would always keep them on aspen because pine was not safe. Well, then I was doing some Googling one day and was reading about Kiln Dried Pine. Said it was different than "regular" pine. Said it was safe to use with rabbits who have sensitive respiratory systems. I bought some to use with my rabbit and I loved it! Absorbant and much nicer than aspen. And no breathing problems for my bun. Ok so that doesn't really help, but after reading all this stuff about why not to use pine with snakes I've been wondering if the same arguement (pine vs kiln dried pine) is true for reptiles.

[bad-one]

I haven't used pine for my snakes, mainly because I love my newspaper.

However, I've only just started breeding rodents mid last year but I have exclusively used kiln dried pine for their bedding and I love it! My newly set up mice are healthy as can be and so are my rats who are doing just fine. No sniffling, sneezing, etc.

I have to agree that aspen sucks- used it for 3-4 years with my first bp, it barely absorbs anything

[WingedWolfPsion]

That's the problem, you can't take the individual experiences of a few people, and say 'oh, see, well that proves it, it's safe'.

If snakes aren't reacting to pine in a similar fashion to the way rats do, then they aren't very likely to show elevated liver enzymes if kept on pine, the way rats do. If that is so, then it might be safe for them, but you cannot know until you test it.

Your argument simply makes no sense.
Rats carry mycoplasma, it makes them very sensitive to respiratory irritants. Ball pythons have one large primary lung, and only a tiny secondary lung, and they have no diaphragm, so they can't cough--that makes them sensitive to respiratory issues as well, though possibly not as sensitive as rats.
But this isn't about a simple respiratory irritant, it's about toxins that affect other organ systems in the body.

Where is the logic in taking an unnecessary chance with the health of valuable animals that we care about?

Are you honestly trying to claim that 'so and so does it and he says he never had a problem' is equal to an actual scientific study? Are you honestly trying to claim that because you haven't NOTICED a problem, that means there isn't one, period?

Why are you trying to promote pine as safe, when you have no scientific evidence to back it up? Since we know pine is not safe for some other animals, FOR WHAT REASON would we take the risk without the data on whether or not it is completely safe for snakes?

That's what I'm asking her--my main question--WHY TAKE THAT RISK?

[WingedWolfPsion]

I did not know that Pine was harmful to rodents. Ive been using Pine in my rodent cages for over 2 years now, and I have never had an issue.

If you're keeping a pet rat, it's a poor choice, as it will cause lots of sniffles, and they'll die at a younger age.
If you're keeping feeder breeders, they won't live long enough to die from complications due to being kept on pine.

[wilomn]

If you're keeping a pet rat, it's a poor choice, as it will cause lots of sniffles, and they'll die at a younger age.
If you're keeping feeder breeders, they won't live long enough to die from complications due to being kept on pine.

Your first sentence is a flat out lie. I've got over 100 adults here you can come listen to any time you like. They've never been on anything but pine. I've got to be 30 generations on pine.

You second sentence is pure balderdash. You may have studies to back it up but as has been said, kraplan isn't known for accuracy, honesty or intelligence. I've had pet rats live 3 or 4 years on pine.

Do you have ANY personal experience with it?

As far as your scientists and measurements go, I may not be going to that extreme but my snakes eat, breed, move, live long lives and have multiple generations all while living on pine from hatchling to old age. I have decades of experience with, as I said, thousands of snakes. My information, though it directly contradicts what you regurgitate, is true, accurate and time tested.

[rabernet]

Or, to put it more simply, do you want to trust your female coral glow pied to a bedding that causes rats to wheeze and snuffle and die at half their usual lifespan?

All of my rats are kept on pine (pellets for adults, shavings for nursing moms and babies) - none wheeze or snuffle, and my oldest was almost four years old before she died. I personally have seen no negative effects of using pine bedding for any of my rodents. In addition, it cuts the smell much better than aspen does.

[West Coast Jungle]

I also keep many hundreds of rats on regular pine and have for 5+ years generation after generation with many of them as pets that are my wifes personal favorites. Never have had any respitory problems whatsoever.

Now what does cause respitory problems is keeping rodents in enclosed tanks with little ventilation caused by the the fumes from their constant peeing and pooping. The bedding is irrelevant. Some could very easily blame the bedding but the reality is they need cages with screened or grated tops that allow alot of air circulation.

I have seen several theories on the internet that are based on assumptions more than facts, for instance, dont feed in the enclosure because they will bite you whenever you open the cage. This is bunk but still is believed and preached passionately by many.

I am a fulltime newspaper guy for BP's now but have kept my kings on dried pine and aspen with the same results, perfectly fine.

I dont use dried pine on the rats (even hairless) and for many years and have never had any problems at all, ever.

For snakes I would say only dried pine and you are fine, rodents either one

[WingedWolfPsion]

Sorry, I do not have faith. I have to stick with the science, personally.

People will have to make up their own minds which they prefer.

But I really disagree with advocating a potentially hazardous bedding choice.

It's amazing to me that you have rats with no respiratory problems at all--since they all carry mycoplasma. Unless you got yours from a special laboratory, delivered by C-section.

If you prefer to trust word of mouth over science...they're your critters, do it the way you want. Just make sure the people you are talking to know enough to make an informed decision about it for themselves.

[Skiploder]

Sorry, I do not have faith. I have to stick with the science, personally.

People will have to make up their own minds which they prefer.

But I really disagree with advocating a potentially hazardous bedding choice.

It's amazing to me that you have rats with no respiratory problems at all--since they all carry mycoplasma. Unless you got yours from a special laboratory, delivered by C-section.

If you prefer to trust word of mouth over science...they're your critters, do it the way you want. Just make sure the people you are talking to know enough to make an informed decision about it for themselves.

Wingy, you got poo all over your shoe and you are tracking it on the rug. Go back out the front door and wipe it off on the lawn. We'll deal with the mess on the carpet.

Again, SCIENCE says that elevated liver enzymes doth not disease make.

SCIENCE shows us that aspen also contains phenols.

The only word of mouth being flopped about here is your strident claim that pine may be bad. You have not one shred of proof and worse, when people come forth and prove to you they've been using it on rats and snakes for decades with no issue, you go turtle. When it's shown that the some of the demi-gods of the snakedom use and recommend it, you go ostrich, and when you are finally backed into a corner you begin spewing nonsensical comments like the one quoted above. We call that going moonbat.

At the beginning of this thread I asked for proof. You are creating a mish-mash response from crappage strewn all over the wasteland of the internet.

See, I can Google the same JSTOR abstracts and the same BS pseudo-science detritus from a bunch of wanna-be biologists and grad students, barefoot and toothless rodent nuts and vomit it word for word here. Point is that the abstracts are the tip of the iceberg and the studies don't mean jack without an understanding of science and a full reading and understanding of the data.

To whit - the cornerstone of the "pine bad" argument is the elevated liver enzyme studies. I've seen too many people running around with that data in the air thinking it's a smoking gun. The problem with hacks is that they don't understand that elevated liver enzymes are a normal part of the detoxification process and unless a manifestation of liver disease is seen it means NOTHING. Smoking gun? More like a partially lit fart.

So enough with your full thread derailment. Crap or get off the pot. Where is your proof that pine bedding is harmful to reptiles? Where is your proof that an elevation of liver enzymes is (a) attributable to pine phenols and (b) that this elevation is a marker of future disease or a shortened lifespan?

Proof, Wingy. Show it or do us a favor and quietly exit the backdoor. You are doing nothing but propagating the same tired old BS bandied about on every snake site. I didn't ask for a rehash of every pine bedding rumor from the past five years, I asked for proof.

I will welcome proof and firsthand accounts of pine carnage. Your flip flops, back flips and mental cart wheels are amusing when it comes to politics, mildly irritating when it comes to social issues and down right hair rending when it comes to science. Embarrass yourself no further please.