Burm Had IBD--Had to Euthanize It.

[CoolioTiffany]

I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sounds very rough

I don't know how long it takes IBD to show up in animals other than ball pythons, but I would consider all your animals under quarantine now that shared a room with it if they weren't already before. From what I have heard, some python species can live with it for a while much like some boas can. I would be keeping a very close eye on them.

Hopefully it wasn't IBD or something easily transmissible.

I know it must be hard to be around animals every day that need rescuing. I have taken in rescues before on more than one occasion. We take a huge risk in doing so, though..

I'm sorry you were offended by some peoples' posts but I really do think they had your (or the snake's) best interest at heart. It is true that it cannot be conclusive that it was IBD since there was no necropsy, but you made a judgement call that was necessary.

I hope to god it wasn't IBD, but knowing the symptoms it could have been, although I'm not a vet so I don't know for sure. It seemed very rough for him though, so I didn't want to keep this snake until the next time I go back to the sanctuary. That might've been torture for the snake if that is what I decided.

Sometimes it's strange seeing some sicknesses with some animals at the sanctuary, but others like RIs (in snakes) or MDB (in lizards) is common so it isn't too strange seeing those. Whenever I notice an RI (I see it so much I know how to point it out.. just the reptiles people bring to us have it) I always tell whoever is there at the moment so the snake can be checked out.

I was a bit offended by some posts, but not too many since I don't believe I really should take too much offense to others' posts on a forum. I hope they understood my situation and how I reacted to it though.


I may add in that in September I should be moving to my other house since the renter is kind of.. trashing the place.. and I will have my own reptile room where my established collection will be at, unless I decide to make it a QT room since it's the room at the back of the house.

[Skiploder]

Without a necrospy(which you cannot do since you froze it) you can't say it was IBD. With as bad of shape as he was in, he could easily have been losing motor control due to the poor shape(through being skinny) and organ failure just before a natural end(which would have happened due to the bad condition he was in to begin with), instead of saying it was automatically IBD just because of tremors and he was skinny and lethargic.

Bingo. Lots of things can cause tremors and odd neurological symptoms, as Wolfy stated above, the overall poor shape of the snake is just as likely the cause for the loss of motor control.

Have the other snakes from the Texas seizure that have supposedly died from IBD been necropsied?

[CoolioTiffany]

Bingo. Lots of things can cause tremors and odd neurological symptoms, as Wolfy stated above, the overall poor shape of the snake is just as likely the cause for the loss of motor control.

Have the other snakes from the Texas seizure that have supposedly died from IBD been necropsied?

Not that I know of, I could ask though. There were some snakes that did experience the same symptoms as the Burm though.

I remember we had two Amazon Tree boas that came in with an RI and the symptoms my Burm had. There also was a Guinea or Nicaraguan boa (baby) with the others that was flipped over on its back and wouldn't right itself and also was leaning its head backwards (not stargazing really.. just sort of leaning back).

That's all I could remember the day we got the snakes and lizards from the seizure. Apart from that we had other things happen. We had these two Green Anacondas that were OK in the beginning but still kinda, eh. I'm not sure what happened to one of them, I just came there one day and we only had one left, but the other I offered a live weaned rat pup to and he wouldn't take it no matter what. All he did was sit there, so I took the pup out and picked up the snake and he was extremely limp. When I was handling him he started twisting his head and spinning so we had to euthanize him.

We also had some Kingsnakes, Milksnakes, and Cornsnakes die. They all would do the same thing, spin their bodies, become really stiff in their muscles, and some would even twist around extremely violently and just be dead the next minute.

We had this beautiful Nicaraguan boa left with bright pink sides, nice clean pattern on the tail, just an overall beautiful snake. One day I was checking through the tubs, feeding, watering, changing the substrate and this snake just died. It seemed pretty fresh because the body was still intact and not decomposed, so I thought it had died that morning or sometime during the night. Though I never noticed anything wrong with this snake, it was in great condition and would eat. It just ended up being dead one morning which was very odd.

The Burms we got had really no problems, I think one had an RI but that was easily treated, but everyone else was doing fine and eating. I believe the Burm I fostered was the only one that actually had that weird thing happen.

With the Ball pythons, a lot of them had ticks and mites which were easily treated for, one had an RI and Scale Rot so that one just eventually died. Any Ball pythons with RIs were treated for, and once the Ball pythons got to the sanctuary there was only one dead in the vision cage they were all in. No Ball pythons that I know of had the signs the Burm did, and some were even in great condition and ended up being adopted out.

Sorry for the long post, just there were some pretty odd things that happened that I felt I should mention to let you know that the Burm wasn't the only one showing those signs.

[dr del]

Hi,

It really does seem to be affecting a heck of a wide set of animals to be IBD Tiff.

There are a few parasites that can cause the symptoms you mention (some protozoans and a couple of others I think).

This is why a lot of people wince when they hear of people taking in animals from rescue centers.

They are always short of cash and, typicaly (but not always ), have neither the manpower or resources to really deal with half the problems they get.

By their very nature they get a lot of the real problem cases - and those cost money at a heck of a rate.

At this point it's possible they are actually increasing the chances of the animals dying compared to the situation they were "rescued" from.

I hope they get some of the animals tested to find out what the problem is and manage to get it under control.


dr del

[CoolioTiffany]

Hi,

It really does seem to be affecting a heck of a wide set of animals to be IBD Tiff.

There are a few parasites that can cause the symptoms you mention (some protozoans and a couple of others I think).

This is why a lot of people wince when they hear of people taking in animals from rescue centers.

They are always short of cash and, typicaly (but not always ), have neither the manpower or resources to really deal with half the problems they get.

By their very nature they get a lot of the real problem cases - and those cost money at a heck of a rate.

At this point it's possible they are actually increasing the chances of the animals dying compared to the situation they were "rescued" from.

I hope they get some of the animals tested to find out what the problem is and manage to get it under control.


dr del

To really think about it, it really does seem to be affecting a lot of the snakes at the sanctuary.

We did Flagyl them for the first two or so weeks and got rid of any ticks or mites they may have had. The Ball pythons were the ones that were heavily infested with ticks, only a handful had mites. We did manage to get rid of anything external, and hopefully most of everything internal. Maybe for some of them the Flagyl didn't kill off everything it had and the parasite population increased.

To be honest, I believe we may have saved mostly only the colubrids because those snakes were/got in the best shape after we brought them here (including most of the Burms and only a portion of the Ball pythons), but everything else seemed to be in mostly OK to bad shape, or went from OK to bad shape. Our Hognoses we got from there (two Mexican Hogs, two Albino Hogs) that we're keeping are doing great with nothing really happening which I'm glad of, the Albinos are very nice looking and pretty friendly.

To add in lizards, they all mostly did horribly. The Columbian Tegus were healthy and mean, and mostly all of the Brown Basilisks did well too. Mostly all of the Agamas (Butterflies and Dragons) died, and some of the Leopard geckos were in bad shape (very skinny). Many of our Water Dragons (MANY) died, so we only have about (guessing) 10 or so left.

Thanks for the kind words, I do really hope we can fight off whatever is going around. I don't notice any of our snakes aside from the seizure show any symptoms of anything bad.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I think you really need to send the next one that dies off for a necropsy--if it's IBD, reovirus, or paramyxovirus, or one of the other nasties, they may at least be able to guess at which one, and give some advice. Some of these diseases can be passed between all species of snakes, and even some lizards.

I also recommend finding an alternative to freezing. Snakes do not hibernate--they brumate. That means they stay awake when it gets cold, they don't fall asleep. They just slow down a lot. So, the snake would be conscious as it starts to freeze. It can't be considered humane, or quick, unless you're using liquid nitrogen, and the animal is quite small. It's no longer recommended by any veterinary association, for this reason. There are still a lot of people around who remember when it was recommended, and pass the info on, unfortunately. Due to a reptile's slow metabolism, there are few ways to humanely euthanize one, sadly. If that's your goal...well, there simply is no choice but to stop freezing and use another method. Not condemning you, of course--you only knew what you were told. I recommend looking into it further on veterinary sites and research papers if you want confirmation on this.

[4theSNAKElady]

aww Tiff, I'm sorry to hear. He looked like he would have been a beautiful adult, too.

[boasandballs]

I'm sorry you had to go through that, it sounds very rough

I don't know how long it takes IBD to show up in animals other than ball pythons, but I would consider all your animals under quarantine now that shared a room with it if they weren't already before. From what I have heard, some python species can live with it for a while much like some boas can. I would be keeping a very close eye on them.

Hopefully it wasn't IBD or something easily transmissible.

I know it must be hard to be around animals every day that need rescuing. I have taken in rescues before on more than one occasion. We take a huge risk in doing so, though..

I'm sorry you were offended by some peoples' posts but I really do think they had your (or the snake's) best interest at heart. It is true that it cannot be conclusive that it was IBD since there was no necropsy, but you made a judgement call that was necessary.

You know Tiffiny, I have been doing this since the early 80's and freezing was the way I was tought to put down a snake. My vet, Roger Klinenberg. Said the drugs are slow and painful. The smashing the head is in no way something I could ever do either.

[CoolioTiffany]

I think you really need to send the next one that dies off for a necropsy--if it's IBD, reovirus, or paramyxovirus, or one of the other nasties, they may at least be able to guess at which one, and give some advice. Some of these diseases can be passed between all species of snakes, and even some lizards.

I also recommend finding an alternative to freezing. Snakes do not hibernate--they brumate. That means they stay awake when it gets cold, they don't fall asleep. They just slow down a lot. So, the snake would be conscious as it starts to freeze. It can't be considered humane, or quick, unless you're using liquid nitrogen, and the animal is quite small. It's no longer recommended by any veterinary association, for this reason. There are still a lot of people around who remember when it was recommended, and pass the info on, unfortunately. Due to a reptile's slow metabolism, there are few ways to humanely euthanize one, sadly. If that's your goal...well, there simply is no choice but to stop freezing and use another method. Not condemning you, of course--you only knew what you were told. I recommend looking into it further on veterinary sites and research papers if you want confirmation on this.

I will definitely tell the owner of the sanctuary to get whatever dies next necropsied, just so he knows what is going around and how we can stop it and prevent it from spreading to any of our snakes or lizards.

All ways I were told on how to euthanize a snake seems too much for me, besides the freezing. The freezing method is the only one I can really stick with unless there was another way that works just as well and not tramatizing for me.

If I were to smash a snake's head with something heavy, I'd most likely be crying, disgusted, ashamed, and tramatized. So, the smashing is something I cannot ever think about doing, even if it was a very tiny snake. That "humane" way, to me anyways, seems very inhumane to do, even though it's quick and gets the job done.

aww Tiff, I'm sorry to hear. He looked like he would have been a beautiful adult, too.

His colors were amazing and his eyes were a golden-orange, so I do wish he didn't have whatever he did because he would have made a nice snake for someone, even though he would give ya a nip every one in a while. He also would hiss every time I was near him, but never really struck, was quite cute too. I honestly would have asked to keep him if I got him to eat and he didn't show those odd signs.

You know Tiffiny, I have been doing this since the early 80's and freezing was the way I was tought to put down a snake. My vet, Roger Klinenberg. Said the drugs are slow and painful. The smashing the head is in no way something I could ever do either.

I definitely agree with smashing the head, that is just awful. And I never knew the drugs actually caused them to have a slow & painful death, glad that you mentioned that.

I was always told that freezing was most likely the best way to go if I could not stand smashing the head, so that is what I did. If I was informed with another way, besides CO2, injections, and smashing the head, then I would have most likely done it if it wasn't something tramatizing for me to see.

[CoolioTiffany]

Just wanted to post this, I was reading up more on IBD and paramyxovirus, and I found this: "Burmese pythons generally show signs of central nervous system disease without showing the respiratory signs. Regurgitation is not usually seen in Burmese pythons" http://www.reptilechannel.com/reptil...y-disease.aspx

My Burm never regurgitated and never really even showed signs of an RI. That day he did show me signs of CNS disease. I'm trying to do some research to see if I can try to figure out what he could have had.