My brain is way too analytical.

[Elise.m]

Sounds like you don't respect your friend.

You're wrong. I have tons of respect for her. How could I not? She totally believes in something that (to me) is not physically real and no one can fully prove. But, it works out for her. That's her deal, not mine.

Ever think she may not respect my beliefs since she's trying to force god on me?

Actually, I think you're simply giving humans too much credit.

Most humans DON'T clean up their homes if they are actually abandoning them (as opposed to selling or passing them on).
They leave them in horrendous states of disorder, full of trash and rotting food, and worse.

The only reason humans clean up their home before they leave is so that the next person to get it will be pleased with it, and will think highly of them. This only applies if they're selling or giving it away. So, it's a social thing. (A clean home also attracts buyers, so that's value, there).

Truly abandoned homes are rarely left totally cleared out, let alone actually clean. People take only what they want with them, and leave the rest.

Or just to get our down payment back on the place

[WingedWolfPsion]

I am trying to think of a specific example that might illustrate this, but.....there are too many.

Not even one? It's pretty hard to refute if you can't come up with one. lol
Any example you come up with, I guarantee, I can refute it with real evidence.

As for space--it's tool making and tool use. Fancy, sophisticated, INCREDIBLE tool use--but still just tool making. It is only different in degree, not type of behavior. Lots of species make tools. You need to look at the basis of the behavior--at the brain, and what underlies it, not just at the end result.

[mr. s]

Not even one? It's pretty hard to refute if you can't come up with one. lol
Any example you come up with, I guarantee, I can refute it with real evidence.

I said there are too many, not that I can't think of one. I chose a very simple one, space exploration.
Haha, I believe you can refute anything you want, but I don't think you can have a strong argument. You could even refute that gravity exists. I bet if we had a debate comparing the intelligence of animals and humans, you could bring up a lot of strong points, but I don't think a very high percentage of the population would agree with you. Using primitive tools and going to space are not equal in my eyes, not even close. Who knows, maybe I stand alone in that view.

[mr. s]

You're wrong. I have tons of respect for her. How could I not? She totally believes in something that (to me) is not physically real and no one can fully prove. But, it works out for her. That's her deal, not mine.

First of all, I don't know the situation, and it really does not affect me, and I am not taking sides. Either way, I have no clue if you respect one other.
I think we are probably talking about respect differently. I respect someones right to do a lot of things, such as vote for the communist party, (yes, in Canada, we have several parties that can run). I do not respect the ideas of the communist party however, and I am not afraid to say that. Too often I think we, as a society, tell ourselves that we respect things and people that we actually don't respect because we have a tough time being honest with ourselves since not respecting ideas is seen as ignorant or racist. I think that is where the difference comes in about respecting a persons right to believe something as opposed to the actual beliefs. It can also be that we respect the life someone lives and don't respect the ideas they believe because we see them as childish and poorly founded.
Again, I am not attacking you. As you said, "You're wrong", I probably am. Just something interesting that I have thought about.

[4theSNAKElady]

I totally agree with this viewpoint. It's exactly what I was thinking.

[4theSNAKElady]

Well, I hate to bring this into a discussion, but from my standpoint It's because we're not animals. We're beings set apart.


A religious standpoint not everyone agrees with and thats okay, but it is mine and one reason I never spend time comparing man to animal.

This view point I agree with.

[Moofins07]

Wow, a lot of great points, guys! Keep the brainwaves a-comin'.

Thanks, dr. del, for the examples.

I respect religion, but I don't feel it's necessary. In my opinion, it's a manifestation of the human mind; the product of a desire to believe there's "something more" to life. It's a perfect example of how far our brains have evolved - it's the capacity to imagine 'what could be'. That's strictly MY opinion, though.

To mr. s, I have to disagree on the "humans can't be classed with animals" front. It's too hard to ignore the fact that the majority of animals use tools, much like we do. As to who is copying who, I have no idea. It's also difficult to bypass the fact that chimps share 99% of our own DNA sequences. They can use "advanced" tools, learn sign language, and even do mathematics. Maybe that's only one example, but chimpanzees are still classed as animals, and since our DNA is only a couple chromosomes off, who's to say we're not too?

[mr. s]

It's true, there are some very talented animals and we share a lot of characteristics.
On a science front, the 98%, (or as little as 95%) that we share is an interesting number because it is something that makes sense in our minds, but I feel does not really illustrate the situation properly. For example, we share about 50% of our DNA with bananas.....yup, haha. Anyways, not that it means we are not similar in several ways to chimps, but the DNA thing is kind of complicated.
About religion, I have a feeling there is going to be a few strong opinions expressed in the next couple posts......I think that religion is a very large subject that cannot be casually observed and a verdict rendered. Both sides of the fence have some of the most intelligent people in the world, which has always intrigued me and made me feel that a proper study of the subject, without fear or prejudice of the outcome, (on either side), would unearth a lot for all parties. (Not that you, Moofins, have not done this, just something interesting).

[WingedWolfPsion]

I said there are too many, not that I can't think of one. I chose a very simple one, space exploration.

By doing this, though, you ignored my basic statement--there is nothing that humans do that is different in quality, rather than quantity, from what other animals can do. Space exploration is just tool use. Other animals make and use tools, so it doesn't qualify as being something different in QUALITY from what other species do.

I'm challenging you to come up with some basic, fundamental trait that humans possess that no other animal does. Some way in which we are truly UNIQUE. Something that really does set us completely apart.

Of course we are smarter than all other known species at present. We're smarter, cheetahs are faster, and elephants are bigger. That isn't a valid point as to why we are 'special' or 'different'.

People have been trying to set humans apart from other animals for thousands of years, and every thing they have come up with to date has eventually been disproven. From tool use to self-awareness, language to creativity...it's all been knocked down by one species or another. I've seen so many statements over the years. "Humans are the only species that make war". No, chimps do that too, and in a surprisingly organized and sophisticated fashion.
"Humans are the only species that kills for fun!"
Dolphins do that. Elephants were doing that in Africa just recently.
"Humans are the only species that has art!"
Elephants draw in the dirt with sticks for amusement--in the wild, not just in captivity.
"Humans are the only species that reveres their dead!"
Elephants again--the behavior of elephants toward the bones of the fallen is remarkable.
"Humans are the only species with spirituality!"
This one is touchy, but Orcas have displayed a behavior that is extremely hard to interpret as anything else.
The seal-hunting Orca pod in one part of the world enjoys an annual feast when the seals breed, and pups are learning to swim. They eat many seal pups, they play with the corpses, toss them around for hunting practice, and generally have a great time. Which is all very ordinary seeming.
But at the end of the day, they take the last seal pup caught, and they toss it around just as before...but more gently. They make a great show and celebration of it, splashing around, and parading with it.
Then one of the orcas carries the pup right up to the shore...and lets it go.

Hey, maybe it isn't what it looks like. But we know their brains are huge, we know they're intelligent, creative, and self-aware. We know that the potential isn't out of the question. Until we learn to speak 'orca', we can't really ask them. (Since they literally see sounds, their communication has been a hard code for us to crack--can you imagine a language comprised partly of sonar pictures? Now imagine the pictures in 'shorthand'. They wouldn't always have to be 'shortened' the same way, either. The upper and lower ranges of their sounds are far beyond ours, so we can only 'hear' them with a computer. This may seem a bit fanciful, but it is a possibility that has yet to be explored--their sound processing centers in their brains are enormous, much larger than ours, and they have proven capable of understanding sentence ordering (ie, 'jump over the hoop, then touch the ball with your tail) for novel requests).

[mr. s]

Of course we are smarter than all other known species at present.

Oh good, we agree.

I even agree that there are smart animals. I agree with everything you said, and it means nothing to me to find something humans do on their own which animals do not do. I have agreed with you this whole time that animals are remarkable and can do some cool things. I am really not entirely clear why you have continued to bring that up. And the difference between quantity and quality is quite unclear, although I know what you are getting at. Humans surpass all other living creatures in both quality and quantity of tool use. Our tools are used more quantitatively, and they are superior qualitatively too. But yes, I get it, monkeys use sticks, I get it. It is like a snow flake and a glacier, they have the same chemical make-up, but a glacier just has a heck of a lot more.
Humans are the smartest beings of which we have knowledge, as you accurately stated. This sets us apart. We are the glacier. I am going to even be a little crazy here and say that HUMANS can set themselves apart from other HUMANS! I see a difference between Albert Einstein and the town drunk. I think that made Einstein special and different, even among humans.

I see your view point. You do not have to restate it. I think you see mine too. That is why I think we agree with one another. Neither of us have even read anything we have not heard before, so I don't know what the discussion is actually about.

Thanks for the banter. Cheers.