Reduced pattern?? Chocolate??

[Viperidae]

Hi! Folks! I'm quite confused on these 2 BPs, the first one lloks like Reduced pattern, the second one looks like Chocolate ball, anyone have ideas come up on them? Thanks folks!!
Considering Reduced pattern



Considering Chocolate

[Jerhart]

Wow....


I would love to see more photos of that reduced ball. Looks very nice!

As far as the other...I am not up to date on my chocolate characteristics so I am of no help.

[Carusima]

That is definately one gorgeous reduced pattern ball! She/he would pair beautifull with a spider.
The second just looks like a normal to me. It doesn't have the light chocolate hue. It does have some nice flames though.

[SUPERBALLS]

The first one definitly is reduced!! the question is if its genetic or not, you will just have to breed her to find out!!! the second one could be a chocolate, heres some pics of my chocolate to help you out!! does its belly have any brown patches on it? thats usally a good ID marker for chocolates!!

[aybe.sea]

wow they're both stunning snakes. even if its not a chocolate its a super nice snake. and the first one is a monster holy cow

[RandyRemington]

Looking nice Superballs! Reminds me of the two surviving half sisters from last summer. I need to take some pictures. The really freaky one didn't make it. I messed up and had a really bad clutch and the three that hatched all had unabsorbed umbilicals.

Since I foolishly sold you that guy I had to send mom over to Marshall but hopefully he'll produce a super for 2010.

[SUPERBALLS]

Thanks Randy! and dont worry you will get first pick of his clutchs this year if you are interested in one!!!

[johnsonw84]

Nice snakes, as afar as the chocolate goes i talked to brian at bhb recently about his chocolates and he said there really arent any markers they look jut like normals you have to breed them out and hopefully get lucky

[RandyRemington]

If you talk to bhb again see if you can get him to elaborate on that. Doesn't he fell that he can tell which babies are chocolates and which aren't?

I wonder if he just meant that it can sometimes be subtle. Maybe you can't always be 100% sure but I think that there is a classic chocolate look that when seen can be recognized. That is to say that some chocolates are obviously different than normals but others maybe look more normal but could still produce a homozygous chocolate proving they aren’t normal.

I haven't seen enough pictures to be an authority by any means but I think it has something to do with the width of the dark areas and also the rich chocolate color that might not always photograph well. There has also been mention of the belly checkering but I'm not sure if that is 100%. Is the white around the black a tendency or not in the two recognized chocolate lines (BHB and Bell)? I thought I read of an example of a super chocolate from crossing those two lines so that would be nice to have confirmed compatibility (might actually have to wait until that super reproduces to be totally sure). I've never heard where either of those lines started so maybe they came from the same place all along for all I know.

I’d post some pictures of my founding Garcia girl and one of her daughters both of which might be genetically the same as the standard chocolate (i.e. heterozygous for the gene if Garcia turns out to be chocolate) and neither of which look at all normal to me but since I don’t even know if they are the same as chocolate yet I don’t want to cloud the issue. Anyone got some pictures of proven line chocolates to post for this discussion?