Lesser and Piebalds crossings?

[dr del]

Hi,

Yeah, the Lessers (the ones from the platty) are het for a recessive gene that brightens up colours.


That video gives more proof that it's a recessive gene that will act on other morphs (the butter-daddy).

As for it being entirely white: it could be a supper lesser (BEL) or it could be an all white pied (in which case it's eyes may not be blue, although there is still a possibility, someone would need to confirm this with a pied over the eyes snake).

But if you bred those third generation snakes back to their parent or to a platty daddy you could get a platty daddy.

It sounds as if you're saying that Lessers from a Platty Daddy clutch do not have the hidden gene, when in reality EVERY one of the offspring from a Platty are ALL het for the hidden gene, the normals and the Lessers.

One of the nice things about this is: You can breed your own Lesser to another Lesser and happen to get a Daddy, or you can even breed your own Lesser to a seemingly normal ball and get a Daddy. I believe every Lesser is from the Daddy, and there are a lot of people with Lessers right now and a lot of normal offspring from Lessers, so you can never really know if you have one with the hidden trait or not.

Which would all make sense since it's a recessive trait (the daddy gene). But when you first said it:




It sounded as if you were claiming that none of the Lessers from a clutch sired by a daddy had the daddy gene in them, but they do, it's just het and to show it needs to be hom.

Oh I actually went back and looked at that video and it's stunning, yeah I like to jump into conversations ~_~

That could just be a fluke, not that I am hoping it was but just that it is a possibility. Then again it may not be a simple Lesser Pied, it could be a Lesser het Daddy Pied, all of which would require more investigation.

Every one of the points above is completely wrong I'm afraid.

The dilute daddy gene is not reccesive - it is either dom or co-dom.

It is an allele of the white snake complex ( as far as we know at the moment ) so the platty daddy can give either one of the genes ( dilute or lesser ) to his offspring but not both.

So if you have a lesser it absolutely does not contain the gene responsible for making daddys.

It therefore cannot make a daddy no matter how many of its offspring you breed it back to.

The white snake in Ralphs video cannot be a super lesser because only one of the parents was a lesser. It also wouldn't contain the dilute daddy gene unless Ralph made the het pied from a lesser sib fathered by a platty daddy or by breeding a platty daddy to a pied.


dr del

[Oxylepy]

The dilute daddy gene is not reccesive - it is either dom or co-dom.

It is an allele of the white snake complex ( as far as we know at the moment ) so the platty daddy can give either one of the genes ( dilute or lesser ) to his offspring but not both.

So if you have a lesser it absolutely does not contain the gene responsible for making daddys.

It therefore cannot make a daddy no matter how many of its offspring you breed it back to.

What is your source for this?

The white snake in Ralphs video cannot be a super lesser because only one of the parents was a lesser. It also wouldn't contain the dilute daddy gene unless Ralph made the het pied from a lesser sib fathered by a platty daddy or by breeding a platty daddy to a pied.

In the last post I didn't deny that it was a Lesser Pied, and made no claims that it was a super.

[Sprinkles]

What is your source for this?

Actually, now that I think about it, it makes more sense than the gene being recessive. The only reason there were daddy's in the daddyxlesser clutch was because they got the daddy gene from the sire and the lesser gene from the dam. So I was correct, you can only get daddy's from breeding a lesser to a sib, or breeding a daddy to a lesser.

[dr del]

Hi,

What is your source for this?

Ralphs breeding records and his discussions about it in the past - also the fact he made a butter daddy.

If it had been a recessive passed on by the platty daddy he would have had to breed the platty daddy to a butter first to get a butter het daddy - he would have mentioned this.

But if it was an allele (or another mutation that is part of the white snake complex ) that was dom or co-dom all he would have had to do would be to breed a butter to a lesser sib or platty daddy - which is what he did.

Also did you not wonder why, with all the lesser to lesser breedings going on to make BEL's, no one had ever produced a platty daddy?

Every single lesser out there comes originally from a platty daddy animal. If it really was recessive and caried by them all then the first generations at the very least should have been shooting out 25% platty daddys from lesser to lesser pairings. Granted it would have dropped quickly wih any outcrossings but it should still happen - it simply doesn't.

I wish it did - I like platty daddys and have a little lesser male (F2 from an african platty mamma found at the same time as Ralphs platty daddy apparently ) and it would tickle me no end if he was all I needed to make a platty daddy.

In the last post I didn't deny that it was a Lesser Pied, and made no claims that it was a super.

As for it being entirely white: it could be a supper lesser (BEL) or it could be an all white pied (in which case it's eyes may not be blue, although there is still a possibility, someone would need to confirm this with a pied over the eyes snake). The hidden gene has NOTHING to do with producing a BEL.

dr del

[Oxylepy]

However for all the normal sibs to be het daddys then the daddy or the lesser gene would have to be distributed to all the young, however there is a regular butter female, and then the het daddy, and a butter daddy. Thus it either has to be a different gene or a recessive and a different gene.

Alleles exist on the same gene location, so if it is a different allele then all offspring would either be Lessers or Het Plattys, so if he bred that to a Butter the offspring would be Het Plattys, Lessers, Het Platty Butters or Butter Lessers. The normal is supposed to be a 100% Het Platty, then he has a normal butter, which shouldn't even be there if the Platty and Lesser are alleles, and a Butter Daddy.

The ONLY possible ways to get what he got with that clutch are:

Platty is a Recessive and the Butter was het
or Platty is a different gene than the Lesser, meaning there would only be a 50% chance of any offspring having that Platty trait (including the normals)

If you are claiming that it's a co-dom or dom trait then there is no way it can be an allele of the lesser complex and there be both a butter and a butter daddy, the butter would have to be a butter lesser (as the daddy would ALWAYS be a lesser + platty and would distribute one or the other to its offspring)

Once again I argue that recessive is the only logical option.

As for why more people aren't getting them: Probably because of the HUGE reduction in the likelihood of getting a het Platty Lesser as each generation is born.

[blackcrystal22]

wouldn't that be a super lesser pied?

i would like to see an acutal pied with the coloring of the lesser.

i guarantee RDR made that from a less het pied X lesser het pied making it a super lesser pied. it doesn't make sense that a lesser cross would end up all white without it being a super.

I see this mentioned 4 or 5 times by different people (not meaning to specifically pick on your posts, but they were the first ones).
He states, as well as his birthing records state that he bred a Lesser Het. Pied x Pied. Which means the Pied parent had NO Lesser gene making the Super Lesser Pied an impossible option for that pairing.

Edit: As dr del had already stated, oops. Oh well, further clarifying a point.

[Oxylepy]

REALLY LATE EDIT:

The ONLY possible ways to get what he got with that clutch are:

Platty is a Recessive and the Butter was het
or Platty is a different gene than the Lesser, meaning there would only be a 50% chance of any offspring having that Platty trait (including the normals)


On the second option, if that were the case then you could breed a platty to a normal and get a platty daddy.

[Kevin_Hornby]

Just to add to Del's Point

YouTube - "Butter Daddy" footage

Platty/Daddy/Butter are all on the same allele so only one gets passed on. So if you breed a platty daddy to a normal you get all 'Daddys' (normal looking snake) and lessers. You know all the normals have to be 'Daddys' because otherwise they would be lessers as the snake has to pass on at least one of the genes (lesser or daddy). So breeding a lesser to a 'Daddy' you get Platty's, lesser's and daddy's (only half the normals will be daddy).

[Oxylepy]

Alright, now explain why he produced a Butter and a Butter Daddy off of Platty Daddy x Butter.

That clutch alone should disprove it being an allele of the Lesser gene.

[Sprinkles]

Alright, now explain why he produced a Butter and a Butter Daddy off of Platty Daddy x Butter.

That clutch alone should disprove it being an allele of the Lesser gene.

Because butters and lessers are essentially the same morph, just with slightly different colors. Much in the same way that black pastels and cinnies are the same gene from two different lines.