Piebaldism?

[GenePirate]

Actually, to really confuse the issue, any lack of dermal pigment, partial or entire, is called leucism. Piebald is an archaic term (such as the term "buzzard" when we really mean "vulture"). I believe the correct term for piebaldism is partial leucism. And, yes, these pied BPs are actually pied--or partially leucistic--whatever you want to call them. The condition is genetic, as Pete Kahl has proven, and the term used to describe animals that have stark white patches on their skin is "piebald" or "partially leucistic."

[Serpent_Nirvana]

It's a mutation and a phenotype. Piebaldism stems from a defect in neural crest development during embryogenesis. This defect affects distribution of melanocytes which causes the white patches that you see in humans, rats, horses, (and we assume) snakes, etc. Usually, the more white you see in mammals, the more severe the neurological disorders. That's why breeding for high white in horses is discouraged. I wouldn't be surprised if pied BPs have some sort of disorder that we're not aware of. They certainly can't tell us if they're having visual disturbances or digestive issues. Or, the mutation may be quite benign. It depends on which gene and where along the gene the mutation is located, or if more than one mutated gene is working in tandem with another. I've heard complaints from some breeders that their pieds are picky eaters. If this turns out to be a common complaint, there might be evidence that there is some consequence of this mutation. Hope this helps.

What she said

Just to clarify a bit more as well, for those who haven't had the joys of developmental anatomy: neural crest cells are precursor cells in the embyro that contribute to a number of body systems, including the formation of melanocytes. Because they contribute to a number of other systems, a defect in the neural crest cell migration may well have effects other than just the white patches.

It seems as if mutation ball pythons and other snakes are, in general, healthier than selectively bred or mutation forms of other animals. I have often wondered if this may be because their systems are so much simpler, with every organ effectively having been so effectively streamlined ...

[Freakie_frog]

Actually, to really confuse the issue, any lack of dermal pigment, partial or entire, is called leucism. Piebald is an archaic term (such as the term "buzzard" when we really mean "vulture"). I believe the correct term for piebaldism is partial leucism. And, yes, these pied BPs are actually pied--or partially leucistic--whatever you want to call them. The condition is genetic, as Pete Kahl has proven, and the term used to describe animals that have stark white patches on their skin is "piebald" or "partially leucistic."

There is also a theory floating around that the leucism in the pied isn't unlike that displayed in the spider and this is why Spider Pieds have all white body's and just color on their heads. It is thought that the two forms work together to form a verson of the Lucy. We also see this in the Lesser Pied. Seeing as how the lesser is the most drastic version of the het Lucy it makes since that the Pied and it work together to make a BEL..

HOWEVER.. there are whispers that RDR's Pied Lesser may be toting something else in there.. I've heard tell of Lesser Pieds that are just that Lesser colored Pieds.. Only time will tell

[Joe_Compel]

It seems as if mutation ball pythons and other snakes are, in general, healthier than selectively bred or mutation forms of other animals. I have often wondered if this may be because their systems are so much simpler, with every organ effectively having been so effectively streamlined ...

I often wonder about it too....
In other organisms (especially higher level organisms), mutations that affect the phenotype often have deleterious effects.
Outside of a handful of bp mutations that come with “baggage” (caramels, spiders, cinnys, black pastels, etc.), the amount of vigorous mutations is surprising to me.
Are we over 100 base mutations yet? I stopped counting but we have to be. To me, that is a bunch of mutants with surprisingly few “negative” traits tied in.
I wonder what we will see with all of the crosses being produced.
I also wonder how many breeders are reluctant to share knowledge of "defective" mutants.

[Freakie_frog]

Side Note:

Joe glad to see you back around!!

[Joe_Compel]

Side Note:

Joe glad to see you back around!!

Thanks

[MsPrada]

Actually, to really confuse the issue, any lack of dermal pigment, partial or entire, is called leucism. Piebald is an archaic term (such as the term "buzzard" when we really mean "vulture"). I believe the correct term for piebaldism is partial leucism. And, yes, these pied BPs are actually pied--or partially leucistic--whatever you want to call them. The condition is genetic, as Pete Kahl has proven, and the term used to describe animals that have stark white patches on their skin is "piebald" or "partially leucistic."

This post and the one before are both correct. I just didnt want to take it too far because I wasnt sure how much 'genetics' everyone here has followed.

But anyway, I guess the real reason I was curious is that it seems to me we should see more problems in BP's than we do, with the inbreeding and producing new morphs. Im certainly no expert, and I dont breed nor plan too, it just seems a bit strange from a scientific point of view. Also, I was curious if anyone bred a high white pied to a high white pied and had problems, like the fatal white foal's (Frame white overo x frame white overo) But like someone said, it may be different in snakes because of their much simpler digestive tracts, and pretty much everything else, than in horses. Im also curious if anyone has made any progress as far as seeing how many genes in snakes actually control color because most traits are polygenic. And if so, perhaps having so many genes control this "pied" color, there is kind of a "backup" that prevents major effects.

[JayCee]

For the most part, color has been the #1 determining factor on breeding snakes. When people start trying to play with size I think we will see more problems pop up.

[RandyRemington]

Not having any piebalds much less having raised a large number of piebalds for years I really can't say one way or the other.

I can report that I have lost two unrelated POSSIBLE het piebalds years apart to chronic constipation (and no non piebald project animals to this). The first one after soaking didn't work I took her into my vet who massaged a large bowl movement out. She then ate again but the problem came back shortly and she died. I took her in to the vet who dissected her and said that her intestine was thin and non muscular similar to a known genetic condition in cats called Megacolin. Doing some research and it sounds like its piebald cats that tend to develop this condition.

So, very circumstantial, especially given that I don't know if either ball even was het piebald. I’ve got lots of other possible het piebalds that I think are very likely het pieds that I’ve had for years without this problem. I've posted several times asking about constipation seen with the piebald gene and NOONE has come forward with any similar accounts of problems with homozygous piebald ball pythons.

[GenePirate]

That's really curious because megacolon is definitely linked to piebaldism in mammals. Granted snakes aren't mammals, but it's interesting food for thought. Thanks, Randy.