Question

[adrenalinejunkie]

^I second this!

[Skiploder]

Well, if you plan on feeding the mice to the snake then that would be bad because the mice would have the toxins from the oil on their body and that could be easily passed in the snake once the snake has eaten it which would be even worse since the snake swallowed the oil from the pine that was once on the rodent. I'm not so sure if it's bad for the mice, but I'm guessing it would be since the mice would have the oil from the pine on it's body.

The "guesses" aren't helping the OP - the info on IBD is incorrect (IBD has been transmitted in collections that are mite free) as is the assumption about the snake ingesting "oils" from the pine on the rodents.

The toxicity caused by phenols is not that acute and the amount given off or ingested from a even a year's worth of feeders kept on them would be minute. Much of the data about phenols is extrapolated from its effect on small mammals that have been housed directly on highly aromatic shavings.

Before the negative effects of phenols became well known, not only did many reptiles live right on cedar and pine substrates but regularly ingested mice housed on the same substrates for years.

The effect on their health was chronic in nature even with this high level of long term exposure. In other words - your python's risk from this one exposure is negligible.

There are several things that can cause neurological symptoms in snakes:

(1) Excessive high or low temperatures
(2) Viral infections
(3) Genetic neurological defects
(4) Bacterial infections
(5) Parasites
(6) Exposure to toxins

[Reptile King]

I will keep the snake for 30 days and keep an eye on him. I just hope that it was a freak deal instead of being a disease or neurological disorder. However, I highly doubt that when the snake's head literally flipped upside down and his body began shaking. I will continue to monitor and see what happens.

[Hulihzack]

Point taken! Is it bad to feed mice that have been kept on pine?

We've kept rodents on pine for over 10 years I think... that was NOT the reason for the neurological disorder.

[Reptile King]

We've kept rodents on pine for over 10 years I think... that was NOT the reason for the neurological disorder.

I didn't think that a mouse could cause a brain disorder but was wondering if the oils from the pine could cause him damage?

Thus far today I have not seen any unusual behavior although I have not been watching him constantly. I'm hoping for the best!

[NorthernRegius]

You took the words right out of my mouth. Spiders are known for having a head wobble.

This is a good news/bad news issue. The wobble is not right, but it can occur in morphs with the Spider gene.

The snake may be other-wise healthy & may even outgrow the defect. I saw a vid of a male that was truly severe, but what you describe sounds like it's not effecting the ability of your snake to function or feed.

Not all Spiders wobble, I've a perfectly healthy gal who's dad doesn't wobble either- but this is a common defect to the morph. And even my gal may produce a wobbler down the road... it's not as bad as kinks in T+ Albinos but it is a defect to be aware of. One of the reasons I will be doing more with Pins than Spiders, but back to your snake.

Yes, keep it away from pine/cedar products. Yes, it likely has a genetic defect. But by no means does that mean your animal is at death's door. If you have already become attached to this animal and are concerned if it can have a quality life, yes there is every chance that it can.

All the Best.

[Reptile King]

This is a good news/bad news issue. The wobble is not right, but it can occur in morphs with the Spider gene.

The snake may be other-wise healthy & may even outgrow the defect. I saw a vid of a male that was truly severe, but what you describe sounds like it's not effecting the ability of your snake to function or feed.

Not all Spiders wobble, I've a perfectly healthy gal who's dad doesn't wobble either- but this is a common defect to the morph. And even my gal may produce a wobbler down the road... it's not as bad as kinks in T+ Albinos but it is a defect to be aware of. One of the reasons I will be doing more with Pins than Spiders, but back to your snake.

Yes, keep it away from pine/cedar products. Yes, it likely has a genetic defect. But by no means does that mean your animal is at death's door. If you have already become attached to this animal and are concerned if it can have a quality life, yes there is every chance that it can.

All the Best.

I was attached the second I held him!

Update on Boomer:

I have been monitoring Boomer the last week and did not observe any twitching or him turning his head upside down. That being said I did not monitor him 24/7 either. Today, five days after I observed the odd behavior, I purchased a hopper mouse from a different store. I fed the hopper mouse to Boomer and closely watched while he ate the mouse. I did not see anything unusual at all!!!!! He acted completely normal..........no pun intended for my normal baby ball python.

Is it possible that if the previous store kept the mouse on cedar that he just had a bad taste from the cedar or pine if in fact he was kept on pine????? Thus far I have seen nothing unusual with the exception that he keeps moving his hides all over the place.......the hot side is 88-90 degrees. I just let him be and put his hides back.

[Skiploder]

Is it possible that if the previous store kept the mouse on cedar that he just had a bad taste from the cedar or pine if in fact he was kept on pine?????

If that's the case then you have the rarest of snakes - one with a palate.

I don't know who your breeder is (and don't name him because it doesn't matter) but blaming that petit mal seizure on the bedding that the feeder was kept on is pure bunk.

After I re-read your posts I noticed that the breeder also threw IBD out there as a possible culprit. So now he's thrown two BS solutions out there - my advice to you is to stop asking him for advice - he's 0 for 2, with two wild whiffs.

Dump the idea that the rodent you fed it was the problem - it wasn't. There are several potential reasons your snake is exhibiting neurological symptoms - the type of bedding his food was kept on is NOT one of them.

There is a good chance that your animal has a genetic neurological disorder. In fact, search "wobble" on this forum and read away. You're going to come away with a lot more relevant information than any further calls to that breeder will net you.

[rabernet]

We've kept rodents on pine for over 10 years I think... that was NOT the reason for the neurological disorder.

All of my rodents are also kept on pine pellets and finely milled pine shavings for nursing moms. No issues from feeding rodents kept on pine.

[rabernet]

There is a good chance that your animal has a genetic neurological disorder. In fact, search "wobble" on this forum and read away. You're going to come away with a lot more relevant information than any further calls to that breeder will net you.

It is also possible that at some point he was overheated, either from a temp spike in the OP's enclosure, or at the breeders. This also can cause neurological damage.