Powerfeeding

[Serpent_Nirvana]

This is a very interesting discussion, and I'm glad I stumbled onto it. I've been considering the matter recently as I recently acquired a number of very young snakes that I'm hoping to raise up at a reasonable rate (as opposed to most of my collection, which is largely full-grown).

Now, before reading this, I was worried that feeding one appropriately size prey item every five days was "powerfeeding!" It never even occurred to me that some breeders may actually attempt to "psuedo-assist-feed" in an effort to artificially induce the snake to eat more. To me, this seems like just a terrible idea ... Unless you're hoping for snake liver pate for dinner, I can't think of a single good reason to try it. (Or even "bad" reasons -- dead snakes don't make much money.)

Overall, I think that moderation is key, as with most things -- after reading this discussion, I tend to agree that, for the most part, offering extra prey items to growing youngsters in moderation is probably not terribly detrimental. I don't think it's necessarily the case that the animals can completely self-regulate feed intake -- in other words, even if your baby ball python is WILLING to eat two mice every two days, I still don't think it's a good idea that she should. If, however, she's willing to eat on a five day schedule and take an extra mouse every now and then, I don't think that should be too terribly harmful.

I think, though, that there are more issues being raised here than just how frequently one can safely, healthfully feed a growing baby boid snake ... The link posted by retic720 is fascinating, but I don't think that it is necessarily indicative of what would happen to a baby boid that is grown on a (relatively) rapid feeding schedule. The obese animal in the second necropsy was an adult female. I think it's important to note that she's an adult, because I genuinely wonder if even a fairly heavily fed growing juvenile snake would accumulate such heavy fat reserves. It's a good example of why adult snakes should be very moderately maintained, but I don't know that it necessarily applies to juveniles.

What may apply, though, is another issue altogether, and that is eventual lifespan. That's a debate that can be applied to all species, actually, humans included, but I think it's especially relevant to snakes as they *may* have the most potential to manifest its consequences ... What I'm referring to here is the idea that an animal fed on a moderate starvation diet will live a significantly longer life than one that is fed a normal, maintenance diet. This has been demonstrated in laboratory mice, and anecdotally in snakes. (I have read reports of vipers that lived 40+ years, all of which were fed on extremely lean [>6 meals/year] diets.) There are even some people who deliberately keep themselves on near-starvation diets in the hopes of reaping the supposed benefits.

The topic is controversial as other researchers have suggested that the lifespan increase of ~14 months, while obviously highly significant in mice that only live ~2 years, is, in fact, the maximum lifespan increase for all mammalian species, for which, I think, most of us would probably say that severe caloric restriction isn't really worth it. To my knowledge, the topic hasn't been at all studied in any real research setting in snakes. However, even assuming that it is true, I think it has some ethical considerations as well for us pet owners ... If I feed my pet mouse on a severely restricted diet, he may live longer than any other mouse on the block, but was I really a good pet owner for doing so? For forcing my mouse to live its life in a state of near-starvation? I don't think so, but I'm sure some others would disagree. For snake owners, however, its an interesting concept, especially given the anectodal evidence of elderly, lean vipers and sudden death in obese female breeders. It's also interesting because the concept of "quality of life" is one that isn't discussed in snakes too often, in any context ...

Personally, for my adults I feed on a moderate schedule -- I keep mostly blood pythons, so I generally feed my adults roughly once per month. I also adjust feeding according to each animal's body condition -- if I feel that animal has been looking especially "chunky" lately, I may wait an extra week or two before feeding again, or I feel she is looking "lean," I may give her a rat a week early. I feel this is a bit more natural, as well, as prey probably doesn't walk across an ambush predator's path on a nice, predictable feeding schedule ...

As for babies, I think I'll stick with the "every five day" schedule I've got my young'n's on and hope I get good results from that

Sorry that was so long -- I find this topic extremely interesting ...

[WingedWolfPsion]

I agree, overfeeding and power feeding aren't the same thing at all. I also think it's very difficult to overfeed a baby ball python. I've found that young snakes will often move themselves into a longer feeding cycle, by beginning to reject food offered every 5 days. Moving them to a 7 day adult cycle solves the problem.

Feeding every 5 days is not power-feeding, and does not cause pin-head syndrome. That condition is caused by inducing snakes to eat abnormally large amounts of food--as has already been stated, by introducing another food item on the tail of a previous one, to trick the snake into eating more than it intended to eat.

Power-feeding is all about trickery--pushing the snake into eating more than it actually wants to. It's not about offering food more often. Some snakes are greedier than others, but if their tummy is full, they will not eat.

Power-feeding has been proven to be a bad idea by the experiences of many who tried it. Offering food more frequently to young snakes has not been shown to cause any issues I am aware of--if they're not ready for more food, they just don't take it.

Overfeeding adult snakes results in a fat snake, and that is unhealthy as well of course.

[th3jok3r]

when i first read this i freaked out a bit because ill feed my BP's till theya re full most of them take 1 med rat or about that size but i have a few monsters that take 3-4 and then they are happy but not every feeding day is the same so i feed until my bp's are full makes us both very happy

[Danounet]

My 2 younger BP eat every 4-5 days. If i dont feed them on that schedule, they start cruising their tubs like crazy. I think the younger snakes are just like a hungry teenager with a healty active schedule. When every they are hungry they eat. You cant realy force them or let them starve either.

[trott]

I feed juveniles evry 4 days. My sub-adults are now weekly. The thing to be cautious about is they're metabalism. You would't want to feed another if they're still possibly digesting the previous. I give an extra day just to be sure.JMO
I'm not breeding. They're are some big breeders that feed once a week regardless of age and size.

[Blender345]

Alright now, I agree that forcing the snake to eat more by putting another mouse in its mouth as it eats another is wrong, but I am going to be selfish and ask a question about my situation. So I have a baby male ball python, and it has eaten two hopper mice within ten days, (I am going the every 5 day route). Do you think it is alright for me to offer him a full grown mouse? He is roughly 16 inches and it is quite a pain to get hopper mice. Should I try feeding him a full grown mouse and see what happens? I am more afraid that the mouse may hurt him than anything.

Also, does increased feeding effect the size of the snake? I don't mean weight, as I will not be breeding my normal and have nothing to breed him with, but I mean length/thickness. I am hoping he can grow 4 feet instead of the 3 I am expecting, just because I would rather him be bigger, but I won't "power feed" him to try to attain that size. But do you think it is wrong to try and feed him a full grown mouse every 5 days or so? He is roughly a month old.

Any answer is appreciated, as I will be feeding him Thursday, which gives me time to get another hopper, but I don't have any now. When he eats a hopper I don't see much of a bulge, which is why I want to try a fully grown mouse...

[luna13]

i feed my BPs every friday, two rodents and they seem to be doing excellent

[MsPrada]

It looks to me that there is no 'set' definition of power-feeding. It looks to me like a lot of people consider it to be when you force feed an animal while it is in the process of swallowing another animal.


Anyhow, as a scientist I would very much be interesting in seeing some actual proof as to what the proven side-effects of powerfeeding are, if we take powerfeeding as feeding every 3 days or what not. It sounds to me that what a lot of people are thinking about as powerfeeding is really overfeeding. I believe there is a difference. Overfeeding will lead, most likely, to obesity and health problems caused by accumulation of adipose tissue and what not. Powerfeeding, if you just take the term power and feeding, sounds like you are feeding a snake so that in some way it gains 'power' in this case some extra weight for whatever reason. If you aren't starting with an obese snake to begin with, it seems to me that if you care about your animals (a lot more of us do than people seem to think apparently) then you will notice when it gets too fat, or when you need to slow down and regulate feeding. I see nothing wrong, and this is just my opinion, on "power" feeding. Stuffing an animals mouth with more food when it is swallowing sounds like "force" feeding to me and I only see that as an option if the animal is severely underweight and/or going to die.

If I felt that my girl needed some extra weight then I would feed her every 3 days. She will digest her food in that time and most likely be ready to eat again should she have kept a few of her instincts from the wild and the prey item make itself visible (in wild animal terms). Snakes are opportunistic and eat when they can, normally they arent kept on a schedule of every 10 days or every 5 days. They eat when they can. Now, I understand that these animals are not wild natural born animals and have changed since we have kept them as pets but I doubt seriously that they dont retain some form of wild animal thinking. There are only a few animals, like some fish, that I have read about that have been proven to eat until they will die just because food is offered, but I have yet to come across this in a snake report. I believe that if they do not want to eat, they will not eat. If the stimulus of being hungry is not there, they why would they want to eat? They arent people, they cant be bored and want some chips and get fat. They have much more basic instincts than that

That being said, my girl eats every 7 days, about 10% of her BW. Shes about 400 grams now and eats 2 20 gram adult mice. Two weeks from now I will be changing her to 50 gram weaned rats.

[trott]

Alright now, I agree that forcing the snake to eat more by putting another mouse in its mouth as it eats another is wrong, but I am going to be selfish and ask a question about my situation. So I have a baby male ball python, and it has eaten two hopper mice within ten days, (I am going the every 5 day route). Do you think it is alright for me to offer him a full grown mouse? He is roughly 16 inches and it is quite a pain to get hopper mice. Should I try feeding him a full grown mouse and see what happens? I am more afraid that the mouse may hurt him than anything.

Also, does increased feeding effect the size of the snake? I don't mean weight, as I will not be breeding my normal and have nothing to breed him with, but I mean length/thickness. I am hoping he can grow 4 feet instead of the 3 I am expecting, just because I would rather him be bigger, but I won't "power feed" him to try to attain that size. But do you think it is wrong to try and feed him a full grown mouse every 5 days or so? He is roughly a month old.

Any answer is appreciated, as I will be feeding him Thursday, which gives me time to get another hopper, but I don't have any now. When he eats a hopper I don't see much of a bulge, which is why I want to try a fully grown mouse...

Do you know how much your hatchlig/baby weighs ? I have a hatchling i'm feeding up now and she was on hoppers and now switched over to rat pinkys and soon real small rat fuzzies. Shes about 90g. I go just smaller that the diameter of the snake at it's widest point.If you follow that you should be ok. Better to go smaller if you have to pick between two to be on the safe side with a baby.I undersatnd the timing involved with getting food from pet stores. I have 2 that try and work with me.

As far as the size question. I don't know for sure but i believe length might be predetermined kinda like your height. No matter how much you eat you won't get any taller. But you will get larger. Again, just making an educated guess.

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[mooingtricycle]

You know what i hate to see? What DISGUSTS me?

Animals with misshapen heads due to the way they were fed, and animals that have so much fat, that you can see between the scales and they look like disgusting sausages.

I cant stand overfed/powerfed animals.

Babies fed frequently that remain in a healthy fat/muscle ratio i dont mind. But you can TELL when an animal is severely overweight, and that bothers me.

The internal organs can have irreversible damage done to them because of feeding practices like these, and it makes me very, very sad for these animals.