first bite adventure

[Blender345]

So yesterday morning I go check on my mice. I put a little hopper in with 2 female mice for company. He was hiding in the corner alone so I put him in the cardboard house along with the females. I come back later that day to find his guts hanging out and him dead. I was very upset because he grew on me and I wanted to raise him to become a breeder and just feed the snake the female adults instead. His name was dinner, and because of his death, that's what he became.

I put dinner in a plastic sandwich bag and placed it in warm water to heat him up. I then took the hide off of where the snake was (baby ball python, maybe a month old). This is his second meal, and I never bought tongs to hold dead mice, so I hold dinner by the tail and wave it in front of the snake. He is afraid at first, beginning to ball up, but after a minute or two he flicks his tongue and looks like he is getting ready to strike.

Needless to say he struck, me right in my finger and wrapped around quicker than I thought he could. As he was constricting my finger and biting harder and harder, I looked him in the eye and asked him how I knew this would happen. I walked around and showed my brother at first, contimplating on how to get him off without injuring or scaring him too much. I decided to run his body under warm water and he let go. I quickly ran him back to his tank for fear of another strike. I placed him in, and put dinners body on top of one of his hides. I came back to check 5 minutes later and he was devouring dinner. I am upset that he died, and will make sure the 2 female adult mice are fed live so I can watch. They killed my baby, and their time will come .

Thanks for your time guys, let me know any other way I should have done to get him off of me, or why the stupid female mice killed the baby...

[Neal]

I don't know anything about mice so I can't offer you any insight there. Sent the mice to me, and I will feed them to my anaconda, and make a video for you though. Go look under the anaconda section the first thread: "That's what i'm talking about" and you'll see my snake. People use water, and I guess for a bigger snake some people use listerine. Sorry to hear about your little mouse dieing. Atleast he wasnt thrown away or anything, instead fed to one of your baby snakes.

[cobweb2000]

Mice are territorial and acted completely normal for them when confronted with a stranger in their territory. I am sorry you are upset about about the loss of your hopper but his death was not the fault of the female mice and to blame them for acting like mice is a bit immature. NEVER just throw strange mice into an existing mouse's territory. If you want to try to introduce them, either completely clean the cage to remove the scent of the residents or put them in a new cage--even then they may still not accept strangers.

I assume you are not blaming the snake for acting like a snake, so please do not blame the mice for acting like mice. Feed them if you are going to, but don't purposely feed live as a means of 'revenge'. Statements like this reflect badly on you and others in the herp community.

A small bit of listerine, alchol or water in the snake's mouth will usually make them release.

[nicktreb]

Mice are territorial and acted completely normal for them when confronted with a stranger in their territory. I am sorry you are upset about about the loss of your hopper but his death was not the fault of the female mice and to blame them for acting like mice is a bit immature. NEVER just throw strange mice into an existing mouse's territory. If you want to try to introduce them, either completely clean the cage to remove the scent of the residents or put them in a new cage--even then they may still not accept strangers.

I assume you are not blaming the snake for acting like a snake, so please do not blame the mice for acting like mice. Feed them if you are going to, but don't purposely feed live as a means of 'revenge'. Statements like this reflect badly on you and others in the herp community.

A small bit of listerine, alchol or water in the snake's mouth will usually make them release.

Oh, come on... how about... statements like yours reflect badly on people who just want to share their stories and questions with the forum but then get criticized by people like you who just like to try and sounds smart. Feed them live because of revenge. It definitly is your own fault, but honestly who cares, they are mice who are being breed for feeding purposes. I wouldn't listen much to what this all mighty protecter of mice has to say, they are your feeders and don't let anyone try to tell you what to do , or that it's "immature".

p.s. Statements like this reflect badly on people in forums.

[Neal]

Oh, come on... how about... statements like yours reflect badly on people who just want to share their stories and questions with the forum but then get criticized by people like you who just like to try and sounds smart. Feed them live because of revenge. It definitly is your own fault, but honestly who cares, they are mice who are being breed for feeding purposes. I wouldn't listen much to what this all mighty protecter of mice has to say, they are your feeders and don't let anyone try to tell you what to do , or that it's "immature".

p.s. Statements like this reflect badly on people in forums.

LOL, I like your attitude. I agree with you also. It's not like the guy knew what was going to happen, who would of figured that a mouse would eat another mouse? What's wrong with revenge, we all get revenge on something sooner or later in life. I live feed because I really don't have a reason, I think my snake prefers it, since my snake is acting like a snake and normally eats live. :p

[cobweb2000]

Oh, come on... how about... statements like yours reflect badly on people who just want to share their stories and questions with the forum but then get criticized by people like you who just like to try and sounds smart. Feed them live because of revenge. It definitly is your own fault, but honestly who cares, they are mice who are being breed for feeding purposes. I wouldn't listen much to what this all mighty protecter of mice has to say, they are your feeders and don't let anyone try to tell you what to do , or that it's "immature".

p.s. Statements like this reflect badly on people in forums.

Do you honestly have any idea how many people outside of the hobby think everyone who owns snakes only do so because they like to see some little fuzzy mouse/rat/rabbit get killed?

Do you not think that perhaps one way to improve the image of a snake-owner to the general public is to realize feeder animals are living beings in their own right?

Do you also not think that a bit more discretion when admitting you are feeding live for 'revenge' or for whatever vicarious thrill you get would help our image?

FWIW: I breed mice and I feed them live. I am hardly their almighty protector, but I am a little dismayed by the hypocrisy shown by the original poster that the snake is not blamed for following its instincts but the mice are.

Differing opinions and criticisms are to be expected if you choose to post on a public forum as I'm sure the OP is aware of.

[Blender345]

First off, Dinner, my baby mouse, was living in the enclosure 24 hours before I intoduced the 2 female mice. The only reason I did introduce the female mice was to keep him company. I read that male mice can be territorial, which is why I used females. Secondly, I did not know people house mice individually, last I knew pet stores housed countless males with males and females with females, and I was pretty sure mice were community animals, hence why I didn't want Dinner to be alone. Third of all, I would have fed the females to my snake live even if Dinner was never hurt, but because they harmed him and ripped him up gives me a good reason to watch and enjoy the show. Had I really wanted to get revenge I'd give the 2 females to one of my 3 cats to play with for a while before giving them to my snake, which again, would be eating the live regardless of the situation.

Do I feel it is my fault Dinner was killed by the female mice? Of course. And I feel horrible about it. Who would have thought 2 new female mice going into a babies territory would take over and kill him? I will enjoy the show in 5 days, be happy they won't be cat toys before hand. As I have seen someone post before, if you are not willing to feed animals to your pet, you shouldn't own a snake.

[Blender345]

Cobweb, your post doesn't upset me really, just the fact that you assumed I am only feedng for revenge and that mice naturally eat other mice... I have never seen mice in petco or any other place where I have seen mice kill eachother. I assumed, just like you assumed that I am feeding live out of revenge, when in truth my snake would not take the frozen thawed meal I first offered him, that the female mice would act more like mothers and comfort my lonely baby mouse who grew a place in my heart. I originally planned to feed him to the snake but he grew on me and I would have liked to keep him as a pet. Who would buy a snake just to watch them eat and kill live animals? I would prefer frozen thawed but snakes naturally eat live animals. I never realized mice were carnivores as well... Thanks for clarifying that.

[cobweb2000]

I am upset that he died, and will make sure the 2 female adult mice are fed live so I can watch. They killed my baby, and their time will come .

..

That quote above is why I thought you were revenge feeding, I apologize if I misunderstood you.

I keep pet rats and foster for a rat rescue group so I am a member of a lot of forums/groups that deal with owners of some of the smaller pet mammals and the only snake owners most of them know are the people who tend to post feeding videos on YouTube. From those, they are led to the conclusion that the only reason anyone owns snakes are because we like watching the cute little baby bunny get squeezed to death by a snake. I feel like I am fighting a continual battle on those boards to let people know that not all herp owners are like that. Comments like 'its just a mouse, who cares' (I know that was not your comment) or similar make it harder for non-snake people to empathize with snake owners. I get the impression from many of these people that they are just as scared of snake owners as they are of the snakes themselves. I don't think we are going to get very many people on our side with all these bans coming if they think we are a bunch of sadists.

For your mouse, again I'm sorry the little guy died. Norway rats and mice are both territorial and fights can break out in either sex (mice are much worse about it though). They aren't killing each other because they are carnivorous; they are fighting over territory. The loser can't run away since he/she is stuck in a cage, so fights can turn very serious. That being said, once the intruder is dead they are opportunistic and will sometimes eat the loser. I'm actually in the process of phasing out my mice colonies and only working with ASF's partially because they don't fight as badly as mice.
If you do get more mice in the future, I've had reasonable luck introducing several females that are close to the same age to a clean enclosure. Different ages or housing multiple males together will increase chances of a fight.

Good luck if you get any more!

[Blender345]

Thanks for the clarification cobweb. The situation was kind of personal for me and I am sad about the outcome. Now I know for future reference. I would rather breed ASF Rats but I don't know where to get any. I only feed live as he will not take frozen thawed, but I am now debating on whether or not he will since he took an already dead hopper mouse. What do you suggest? And also, as a breeder, which do you find easiest to breed between mice rats and ASF rats? I apprciate your time and comments and am sorry for my previous responses, as being told it is my fault hurts, even though I knew it was. I had plans for the little guy but he ended up serving his original purpose. I have a pair of females with a male I am trying to breed at the moment, along with those other 2 females I was going to just feed to my snake. Like I said I would prefer f/t but am not sure if I have much of a choice. Where can you get ASFR's and are they worth breeding opposed to mice? My snake is only about a month old and has only eaten twice. Again I appreciate your time and hope you guys don't think any less of me. I only said that out of distress and sadness, but as time passes I am more calm and collected. All responses are welcome.