Burm hunt video

[Mendel's Balls]

Why would they list native species on there as exotic, invasive? Coyotes and prairie dogs are both native.

It might have something to do with the problem of determining at what point is something "native."

This essay titled "Re-thinking Invasive Plants" (http://www.prodigalgardens.info/reth...e%20plants.htm) discusses this point in more detail. While the essay focuses on plants, I'm bet some of it could apply to animal and fungal species as well.

The essay relies a bit too heavily on the (unsupported) Gia hypothesis to build its argument for my taste and takes a somewhat laissez-faire approach to land management. But at times, knowing when to be hands off could be important. Maybe we can use what is being dealt out of the biodiversity deck of cards for society's benefit as well.

It brings up a number of interesting questions, so its well worth a read.

[Mendel's Balls]

Why would they list native species on there as exotic, invasive? Coyotes and prairie dogs are both native.

I think the site I listed above lists them as such because they are not native to some states like Florida.

See

http://myfwc.com/WILDLIFEHABITATS/No...PrairieDog.htm

http://myfwc.com/WILDLIFEHABITATS/Nonnative_Coyote.htm

Interestingly, under the species account for the coyote:

"Native of the western United States and likely entered Florida both from natural range expansion (my emphasis) and human introductions"

Ecological communities do change over time even without human input.

[envy_ld50]

Mendel I think you have done a great job trying to convey my thoughts on this issue.

[Mendel's Balls]

Honestly I think that killing of a species we deem as invasive is ignorant always have and this is not just the case of snakes. I believe that an animal that can survive in an environment should be allowed to they further develop North America's weak ecosystem and help natural selection in the areas they establish themselves in. I know they were introduced improperly however this is the case with many non native plants and animals that end up becoming a positive change in the ecosystem. Humans have always wanted to control the earth and the ecosystem and we will eventually be the most negative impact on it ironically.

/end rant.

Mendel I think you have done a great job trying to convey my thoughts on this issue.

I do want to clarify that in this case I do favor the current attempts of humans to eradicate Burmese pythons in the Everglades. The Burmese would never have established itself in the Everglades if it weren't for zoos and hobbyists keeping them. They would never have naturally expanded to Florida from India in such a short time frame without human intervention. I think the fact that herpers are trying to solve the problem (even if it was mostly due to Andrew's dissemination of zoos and pet shops) can only be seen as positive PR. Rapid change is never a good thing for ecosystems. And eco-tourism is important to the economy of Florida.

However, while I don't agree with everything he said, I do think envy_ld50 is correct in saying that some invasives can get overly bad rap.

Furthermore, some invasion and ecological change is expected. Humans are an agent of change and this isn't necessarily always such a bad thing. Furthermore, some species will need to scarified to maintain the agricultural productivity necessary to feed human populations and drive economic development.

Some of envy's words in this thread as well as some the articles I referred to above also made me thinking of the following scenario.

What if the current eradication efforts fail? Maybe Burmese are really entrenched in the ecosystem? Should we try another eradication approach? How far should we go?

What limits a Burmese population in their native range? (I dont think this known!) What if its some sort of herpetological virus? Should we release it? What about some sort of pesticide spraying? Would that risk damaging non-target native herps? At what point, does the solution becoming worse than just accepting the fact they are there to stay now?

I don't believe we are anywhere near that level yet.....but its worth considering. Eradication efforts can be very costly and environmentally hurtful without much benefit if taken to extremes.

[Mendel's Balls]

In a recent article that has been disseminated in various threads on this forum, Dave and Tracy Barker suggest possible positive effects to the ecology of the Everglades from the unintended introduction of Burmese Pythons:

"Is it a fact that pythons in the Everglades are a terrible ecological problem?

No, it truly is not yet known what changes or problems the pythons in South Florida will cause. At this point in time, Burmese pythons are just one of the thousands of established exotic species in South Florida. They are predators, and we know that they, in turn, also have predators at all age and size classes.

The ecology of the Everglades is in constant flux and has been for at least the past century. It remains to be seen if the presence of Burmese pythons will have any significant effect on the Everglades beyond what already
is at play there. Remember, this already is the area of the world with the most introduced non-native species.

Could they prey on endangered or threatened species?
Yes, certainly that is possible. But, in turn, pythons will likely be identified as significant predators of feral cats and young feral hogs, both identified as detrimental invasive species in the Everglades. (my emphasis)

It may be that Burmese pythons become a valuable resource. As is true for alligators, the hide of pythons has value; python skins are commercially harvested throughout their native ranges. Just as iguanas in Miami are
harvested for meat, many cultures consider python to be a delicacy.

What Burmese pythons are is an unexpected change, a new factor in the ecology of an already highly modified ecosystem. It is a fact that they are in the Everglades to stay, a permanent addition to the herpetofauna of Florida."

[Lucas339]

i suggest those of you who continue to comment against the elimination of non-native read this (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...52a9310bce8a17) and this (http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...N%5D2.3.CO%3B2).

many of you just don't get how much trouble florida is in with its invasives. i strongly feel that ALL must be erridacted. there are just too many and we are begining to lose natrual ecosystmes. we finally have a group working on restoring the everglades and they are finally working in the right direction. there will be changes to water flow and, hopefully changes in species management.

i strongly suggest that those you that wish to comment on such subjects actually educate yourselves on FLORIDA invsavies and not invasives elsewhere. there is a difference and they cannot be compared. PERIOD END!!!!!!!!

[Mendel's Balls]

i suggest those of you who continue to comment against the elimination of non-native read this (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...52a9310bce8a17) and this (http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...N%5D2.3.CO%3B2).

many of you just don't get how much trouble florida is in with its invasives. i strongly feel that ALL must be erridacted. there are just too many and we are begining to lose natrual ecosystmes. we finally have a group working on restoring the everglades and they are finally working in the right direction. there will be changes to water flow and, hopefully changes in species management.

i strongly suggest that those you that wish to comment on such subjects actually educate yourselves on FLORIDA invsavies and not invasives elsewhere. there is a difference and they cannot be compared. PERIOD END!!!!!!!!

Why do you assume a "natural" ecosystem is better?

And what if they the non-native Burmese can not be eliminated? Then what....

[Mendel's Balls]

"What I find particularly depressing about the “native species only” argument is that it ends up denying the inevitability of ecological change. Its underlying assumption is that the plant and animal communities that existed in North America before the Europeans arrived can and should be preserved. The fact that this pre-Columbian environment no longer exists—and cannot be recreated—does not seem to matter. Many landscape professionals have a strong desire to restore habitats to the way they used to be, even after the original conditions that produced these assemblages of plants and animals have long since disappeared. To deny the inevitability of ecological change or to pass moral judgment on it is to deny the reality of organic evolution."

From this issue of the Harvard Design Magazine.

[Mendel's Balls]

i suggest those of you who continue to comment against the elimination of non-native read this (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...52a9310bce8a17) and this (http://www.bioone.org/doi/full/10.16...N%5D2.3.CO%3B2).

many of you just don't get how much trouble florida is in with its invasives. i strongly feel that ALL must be erridacted. there are just too many and we are begining to lose natrual ecosystmes. we finally have a group working on restoring the everglades and they are finally working in the right direction. there will be changes to water flow and, hopefully changes in species management.

i strongly suggest that those you that wish to comment on such subjects actually educate yourselves on FLORIDA invsavies and not invasives elsewhere. there is a difference and they cannot be compared. PERIOD END!!!!!!!!

Do you realize that Burmese do not even fit the legal definition of a Invasive Species? Nor have they demonstrated the "invasive behavior" that characterizes many native species.

I dont think anyone knows what effect exactly they will have had on the ecology of the region. I dont think it will be as dire some people are making it out to be. Will they really be responsible for the extinction of endangered species that are already on their way out?

You just keep saying how Florida is so different and how those of us that are skeptical of your grand claim (that each and every non-native and/or invasive that ended up in Florida needs eradicated at all costs) need to get educated but you did not address any of the issues I've brought up. I'm not saying that invasives are never a problem.....I'm just saying that the analysis needs to be a little more subtle than "invasives are evil" so lets declare widespread war on them.

[Joe Cope]

Won't load.