Here you are...

[CeraDigital]

Since this topic of creating a new thread, when the problem could have been addressed in the current thread, was repeatedly brought up. I will do so now.

The original point of this thread has been dragged through the mud and beat to death far long enough. Questions have been asked and answered. Anyone reading it is free to come to their own conclusions about who was "right" and who was "wrong" and who the "donkeys" are.

The question wasn't exactly answered. The thread just went back and forth.

I would like to remind members that if they have a problem with staff, there are ways to address it that do not involve dragging threads off topic and adding more mud to an already difficult situation.

There is the problem. Addressing the problem with staff...because quite frankly, where does it lead? I don't see it going fairly far.

First and foremost, the very best thing to do if you have an issue with something a staff member has said or done is to address them directly and privately about it. If you truly feel that such contact would go badly, then please feel free to contact any other staff member, whoever you feel most comfortable talking with. We're always glad to work things out. We're not perfect and do make mistakes and work hard to hold each other accountable for genuine errors.

Another problem. Most of the "problems" brought up, if not all, are addressed to all staff, in the administrators/moderators forum, no? As such, how is it being properly handled when its a staff members word, against a simple members word. I see unfair and unequal treatment. A simple turn your back and look the other way.

If you have some reason for feeling like your complaint MUST be made public, then we have the Site Info forum for you to make a comment in.

Posted.

I'd like to point out that if the staff here were so completely biased and unreasonable as we've been accused of being, then those accusing members would probably already be gone...or at least have heavy infractions levied against them. But nothing of the sort has happened, because we do respect people's rights to voice their opinions, so long as they are not intentionally trying to undermine the integrity of the site or the staff.

Actually, most I've seen would rather nit pick, and irritate the member. What you all so famously call "bear baiting" I've seen it done. It just happened to me in the BHB thread. What comes of that? Infractions? I don't believe so. Is it removed? No, I don't believe so either. So where is the fairness or justification in this forum?

This forum has claimed to be fairest. I've seen claims of equal treatment. Claims can be made all day long, yet where are the actions?

How many times has it been brought up that any breeder may be questioned no matter who they are? Yet, whenever one is questioned that seems to be friends with you, or your staff, the individual questioning or inquiring on their practices is attacked. That doesn't seem like equal treatment to me, nor a fair forum.

The question at mind seems to be.... Where is the proof that your forum is very fair, or "fairest" as so claimed?

[JLC]

Since this topic of creating a new thread, when the problem could have been addressed in the current thread, was repeatedly brought up. I will do so now.


The question wasn't exactly answered. The thread just went back and forth.

Which question wasn't answered? The one about the giant snakes? That he only has a handful of? That he already said he had ordered larger housing for? Or the one about the housing for the monitor? Where he explained why he fed in a separate tub AND that he no longer even has the monitor to house, however correctly or incorrectly in everyone else's eyes?

Whether or not you, personally, are happy with those answers, they were given.

There is the problem. Addressing the problem with staff...because quite frankly, where does it lead? I don't see it going fairly far.

It went here, didn't it? I'm taking the time to type out an answer for you. What, exactly, do you expect us to do? Turn over the running of the forum to you so that it runs the way you think it should?

Another problem. Most of the "problems" brought up, if not all, are addressed to all staff, in the administrators/moderators forum, no? As such, how is it being properly handled when its a staff members word, against a simple members word. I see unfair and unequal treatment. A simple turn your back and look the other way.

Either you trust the staff to handle matters with integrity...or you do not. It's as simple as that. If you don't trust us, then there is absolutely nothing I can say to make you do so. All I can do (and all the entire staff can do) is to continue to run the site as best we can, with as much integrity and honesty as is humanly possible. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. There are lots of other communities to get involved in, and maybe some other staff at some other site will better fit YOUR personal idea of "fair."

Actually, most I've seen would rather nit pick, and irritate the member. What you all so famously call "bear baiting" I've seen it done. It just happened to me in the BHB thread. What comes of that? Infractions? I don't believe so. Is it removed? No, I don't believe so either. So where is the fairness or justification in this forum?

I'm quite sure you will NOT see my point of view here...but my point of view is the only one I have to offer. I did not see "bear baiting" in anything that rabernet said in response to you. Incredulity, maybe. But I did not see her trying to get a rise out of you and intentionally provoke you into an unreasonable outburst.

Should the entire site be run on YOUR definition of fairness? Should we justify all our actions based on YOUR thought processes? How can we do that? Not just for you, but for any individual? All we can do is gather together the most mature, level-headed people who are willing to donate their time and emotional energy to running this site. We work hard to make sure we hold ourselves accountable to very high standards of behavior, as well as rule creation and enforcement. We make mistakes...and when we do, we correct them as quickly as possible. In this one particular instance though, I do not see a mistake having been made.

This forum has claimed to be fairest. I've seen claims of equal treatment. Claims can be made all day long, yet where are the actions?

So fair and equal are only in your eyes, then? Our actions are the hours and hours spent each and every day by every single member of this staff to keep the site up and running as smoothly as possible. Will we occasionally have disagreements with members? Certainly. If you think it's possible to run a site like this, with THIS MANY people participating each and every day...to never have some sort of conflict or disagreement, I'd really, really like for you to share with me how that can be. What's your secret???

How many times has it been brought up that any breeder may be questioned no matter who they are? Yet, whenever one is questioned that seems to be friends with you, or your staff, the individual questioning or inquiring on their practices is attacked. That doesn't seem like equal treatment to me, nor a fair forum.

Did we allow people to question Brian? Of course we did. Did any single member suffer retaliation, infraction, or banning because of their participation in that thread. No. Is staff not allowed to agree or disagree as their own opinions warrant? How is the fact that the overall opinion of the staff goes one way means we don't allow a discussion to continue or happen at all?

The question at mind seems to be.... Where is the proof that your forum is very fair, or "fairest" as so claimed?

I could ask you the same thing, Andrew. Where is your proof that it is so awfully unfair? All this based on the simple fact that we don't agree with you on a topic or two?

[CeraDigital]

Another point on fairness. Said "Big snakes, small enclosures" thread is locked, correct? Yet the moderators still post in it. One quoting, and outright attacking the opinion of another member, yet due to the thread being locked, the member cannot defend himself. How is that fair? How does that make this forum "fair" when such is going on?...

i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........

regards ''jp''

I kiss nobody's butt, not Brian's and not yours. And since you are sure of the motives of people that you don't know personally and have never met, you demonstrate that you know nothing.

[JLC]

Another point on fairness. Said "Big snakes, small enclosures" thread is locked, correct? Yet the moderators still post in it. One quoting, and outright attacking the opinion of another member, yet due to the thread being locked, the member cannot defend himself. How is that fair? How does that make this forum "fair" when such is going on?...

THAT was a mistake, and I apologize for it. It is entirely likely that Dale did not realize the thread had been locked. The "reply" button continues to work as normal for staff members, so it is all too easy to respond in a locked thread if they didn't notice it was locked to begin with.

I agree with you 100% that staff members should not post in locked threads in order to argue with someone that can't respond back in the same fashion.

[Creeptastic]

Unbelievable...its almost like he thinks he pays to be here...so the admins/mods should do everything to his liking. This is a free forum!!! No one owes you anything. I have been to a TON of forums with absolutely horrid admins/mods...its great here ( I havnt been here too long, I am stating from my personal experience so far). But really, Compared to other forums, this place is great! Atleast you have the option to debate without an instant ban.

[CeraDigital]

Which question wasn't answered? The one about the giant snakes? That he only has a handful of? That he already said he had ordered larger housing for? Or the one about the housing for the monitor? Where he explained why he fed in a separate tub AND that he no longer even has the monitor to house, however correctly or incorrectly in everyone else's eyes?

Whether or not you, personally, are happy with those answers, they were given.

Now when another breeder would have given such answer, they would have probably been ripped apart for "lying" or covering up their story, correct?

It went here, didn't it? I'm taking the time to type out an answer for you. What, exactly, do you expect us to do? Turn over the running of the forum to you so that it runs the way you think it should?

Or perhaps give better practice towards equal treatment. Would that not be definition of fair? "Equal"

Either you trust the staff to handle matters with integrity...or you do not. It's as simple as that. If you don't trust us, then there is absolutely nothing I can say to make you do so. All I can do (and all the entire staff can do) is to continue to run the site as best we can, with as much integrity and honesty as is humanly possible. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. There are lots of other communities to get involved in, and maybe some other staff at some other site will better fit YOUR personal idea of "fair."

What guarantee can you give, other than integrity, to provide a "fair" and "equal" forum? What proof do you have, as has been claimed, that this is a fair, or "fairest" internet forum...

I'm quite sure you will NOT see my point of view here...but my point of view is the only one I have to offer. I did not see "bear baiting" in anything that rabernet said in response to you. Incredulity, maybe. But I did not see her trying to get a rise out of you and intentionally provoke you into an unreasonable outburst.

Oh? Practically making fun of my statement. I do believe that would be bear baiting.

Should the entire site be run on YOUR definition of fairness? Should we justify all our actions based on YOUR thought processes? How can we do that? Not just for you, but for any individual? All we can do is gather together the most mature, level-headed people who are willing to donate their time and emotional energy to running this site. We work hard to make sure we hold ourselves accountable to very high standards of behavior, as well as rule creation and enforcement. We make mistakes...and when we do, we correct them as quickly as possible. In this one particular instance though, I do not see a mistake having been made.

I had not seen that mistake "corrected". I am not the only individual who had seen that as poking a stick, bear baiting, or making fun. Perhaps you should go and look back on it.

As for my fairness? Perhaps you should look at what fairness means, before claiming a fair site.

air1  [fair] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, adverb, -er, -est, noun, verb
–adjective
1. free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice: a fair decision; a fair judge.
2. legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules: a fair fight.

You preach fairness, yet I have seen other breeders, such as Wes Harris attacked for no reason other than your own justifications. You all were pretty severe on him...please do, tell.... how much do you know of the truth about what went on, other than claims on fauna, or second hand comments, such as the market crashing. How much of the truth did Wes state, when it was shunned, or looked down on and he was called a liar? This is just an example.

So fair and equal are only in your eyes, then? Our actions are the hours and hours spent each and every day by every single member of this staff to keep the site up and running as smoothly as possible. Will we occasionally have disagreements with members? Certainly. If you think it's possible to run a site like this, with THIS MANY people participating each and every day...to never have some sort of conflict or disagreement, I'd really, really like for you to share with me how that can be. What's your secret???

Look at a few other forums, such as CU. Large amount of ACTIVE members. 2 moderators. Nothing such as this going on. Hmmm...obviously those forums are doing something right. Even when something such as a large disagreement goes down, nothing like this happens.

I could ask you the same thing, Andrew. Where is your proof that it is so awfully unfair? All this based on the simple fact that we don't agree with you on a topic or two?

So you cannot answer my question? I've given more than one statement as to how it is not fair. Where is yours?

[CeraDigital]

Unbelievable...its almost like he thinks he pays to be here...so the admins/mods should do everything to his liking. This is a free forum!!! No one owes you anything. I have been to a TON of forums with absolutely horrid admins/mods...its great here ( I havnt been here too long, I am stating from my personal experience so far). But really, Compared to other forums, this place is great! Atleast you have the option to debate without an instant ban.

Oh? I've been to plenty of forums since the reptile forums first started forming such as kingsnakes, and Bob Clarks. I've never seen an instant where you could not debate without being banned. All of those forums allow debates...

From what I've seen, all forums are free Your opinion is your opinion, yet if this is such a great and fair forum, where is the proof of it?

[AaronP]

Andrew I think their merit of being fair has to do with how many users they have that sign up and continue to post here, as well as how many people are on at all hours. If they were so very unfair they wouldn't be here and for that matter you wouldn't be either.

[CeraDigital]

Andrew I think their merit of being fair has to do with how many users they have that sign up and continue to post here, as well as how many people are on at all hours. If they were so very unfair they wouldn't be here and for that matter you wouldn't be either.

Oh? What about continuing members? How many members have left the forum, or refuse to post? That should reflect the merit of the forum as well

[Stewart_Reptiles]

This is me as a MEMBER that has been around for a while. Seems like lately it is very important to reinforce that any staff member is also a member with the right to express their opinion, this time this is not my opinion I am gonna express but I will just ask a few simple questions.

Andrew what I found amazing here is that obviously this is not the first time you complain about this forum or the staff you have done so here, as well as other places, you also made farewell threads numerous times (since I have been a member here)……………………Yet you always come back

This confuses me if you hate it so much here why are you always coming back? Is it because of the free ads? The controversy? The drama?

We know it’s not because it is a great forum that you like, nor is it about the staff or the way this forum is ran, so why is it?