Big snakes, small enclosures.

[DutchHerp]

i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........

regards ''jp''

I think that you need to be very careful about the accusations that you choose to make here, especially when it is meant to discredit or disrespect any member of staff. Consider this a warning.

Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods? I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this? Or am I misunderstanding?

[Jerhart]

YouTube - The Song That Doesn't End

Really people drop it. Look, if you don't agree with how Brian keeps his larger Boids, don't buy from him, don't support him. And just leave it be.

I respect Brian, he has done great things for our hobby. He is one of the pioneers. Do you really think he is the only one who keeps his large boids in tubs as such? So why pick his husbandry skills apart? Because you noticed something that rubbed you the wrong way on snakebytes? Get over it...go watch the other episodes and learn something.

As for the admins...this site is hands down the best forum I am a member of...no butt kissing...I applaud them for some of the idiots they have to put up with. I know I wouldn't be able to do it without losing my cool.

This thread is going on and on and on....there are obviously two sides to this discussion. Neither are going to agree so move on.

Geeze...

[waltah!]

For the record the mods here DO give the same warnings to regular members....I have the expired infraction points to prove it
I belong to lots of forums, and this one is the very best IMO when it comes to staff. They are helpful, fair, knowledgeable and always treat people with the respect that they deserve.

[jknudson]

You guys have to realize that the original poster comes from a country where there are different ideals and beliefs, especially within this hobby. Many Euro keepers prefer larger naturalistic vivs compared to a rack system, and there are different care standards that are the "norm".

Also, how well can a 15ft snake thermoregulate in a 5-6ft cage? In my opinion not that well. I know Brian said that he is getting 8ft FB racks, and that will definitely be much better for the larger animals, hopefully it happens sooner than later.

I have my opinions about the situation, but I'm not going to say how Brian keeps his large snakes is wrong, or that he's unethical, it's just a different way to keep something. Personally I would prefer to see a snake that size in an enclosure with a much larger floor space (even so than a 8x2), so it can actually choose to thermoregulate or stretch out fully.

Just my two cents though.

[rabernet]

i am sure that franykeno and dsirkle did see that too small enclosures but protecting him cause the want to kiss his butt and because they like him i think, their are 100 pics and movies online to prove that brian keeps alot of his giants in too small enclosures...........

regards ''jp''

Where in the TOS does it say we can't "aggressively confront" the mods? I never see you guys give people warnings when they talk like this to other users... but because you are a mod you have the right to do this? Or am I misunderstanding?

Since you asked:

16. No posts or private messages may be made or sent with the express intent to antagonize or discredit the staff. Violation may result in your account being placed immediately on moderated status and/or permanent ban.

JP made a very clear accusation that my staff was somehow "protecting" Brian or kissing his butt, when in fact, they were sharing their own experiences on this topic and have no reason to lie or "kiss up" to ANYONE. Not only that - he accused them of lying as well.

JP didn't choose to call out any other person in this accusation that was also defending Brian, he chose to single out the staff members when making this accusation.

So yes, he did choose to try to discredit the moral compass of two well respected staff members when he publically called them liars and accused them of having an alterior motive for their posts. He didn't "aggressively confront", he made very clear cut accusations in an attempt to discredit them and their posts in this thread.

Disrespect Toward Staff -- 50 pts
Open disrespect toward any staff member, especially with the intent to undermine their authority or damage their credibility.

[mumps]

Hello all,

Just joined this forum, after perusing it for awhile. This subject is very important to me, as I can't seem to understand why breeders, with all of that money at their disposal, who can get tax write offs from constructing enclosures, choose to keep their giants in these god awful tubs. It's easy. It's inexpensive. Blah, blah. You've got nothing to do all day but take care of your animals, it's your job. Do it right.

Anyone who says these snakes don't need room and don't move have obviously never kept giants (or have much interaction with any of their snakes). If you have a giant, open the cage and leave it open. You will quickly see how much they like to move, and how often they do so. Now I am not actually recommending the mass release of giant snakes, just trying to make a point. Same holds true for any snake. Why do we try so hard to make our enclosures escape-proof? Because they will move...

Chris

[Egapal]

Hello all,

Just joined this forum, after perusing it for awhile. This subject is very important to me, as I can't seem to understand why breeders, with all of that money at their disposal, who can get tax write offs from constructing enclosures, choose to keep their giants in these god awful tubs. It's easy. It's inexpensive. Blah, blah. You've got nothing to do all day but take care of your animals, it's your job. Do it right.

Anyone who says these snakes don't need room and don't move have obviously never kept giants (or have much interaction with any of their snakes). If you have a giant, open the cage and leave it open. You will quickly see how much they like to move, and how often they do so. Now I am not actually recommending the mass release of giant snakes, just trying to make a point. Same holds true for any snake. Why do we try so hard to make our enclosures escape-proof? Because they will move...

Chris

Your posts shows a lack of understanding of business. The profit margine on raising snakes is very low. What makes you think they have a tremendous amount of money at their disposal. If a business sells 3 million dollars worth of snakes that means nothing if the cost of running that business is 2,970,000 dollars. Businesses have to take what little profit they do have at the end of the year and balance making money personally with growing the business. You make it sounds like taking care of animals is fun. My family has raised horses for generations. I have not carried on the tradition. You know why? There is no money in it, its 7 days a week. Although it is rewarding and some days are fun, there are only so many times you can do the same thing before its not fun anymore. Its work.

Although I would agree that Brian's giants need more room you have to remember that he realizes it too. He is working on it. You are transferring your human emotions to reptiles. You should be very careful when doing so. Animals and children want to run across the road without looking for traffic. What they appear to want to your eyes is not necessarily whats best for them. Go to your local mom and pop pet store and ask for a feeder mouse. Now try this at 10 other pet stores. Look at all of the conditions that all of the animals live in. Not everyone can live up to the standards that everyone else sets. Lets be happy that Brian takes such excellent care of his animals. Lets be thankful that he admits on camera that he needs bigger enclosures. He is truly one of the better ones.

[771subliminal]

See, that's my point.

Just because a snake can survive in a tub that size doesn't mean you shouldn't provide it the space to roam when it wants to. Even if infrequent.

do you lets your animals roam free, and let them go where ever they want when they want? do you let them go outside anytime they want?

im betting you keep them in some sort of enclosure and like you said just cause they can survive in a space that size doesnt mean you should.

[Denial]

The reason high end breeders like brian and some of the other top guys keep animals in racks like this is because of the number of animals they have. Its very easy for brian to go into the large snake room and slide a tub open pull the large snake from the tub spray it and clean it and put it right back in. As to where I have 6 foot visions that open in the front I actually have to crawl into my cages when cleaning and scrub against the back walls. Which takes a longer amount of time. Its just when you have the number of animals brian has its alot easier to keep them in racks. It takes me 10-15 minutes to clean on of my racks but I have a stack of 6 foot visions from the floor to the ceiling and it takes me an hour to pull everyone out and clean those things. Ive looked into fb racks for my large snakes but I just dont feel comfortable keeping a large snake in them I like to know mine are locked away and it seems to me that a snake that size could push a rack like that open. I talked with the guy from fb and he is suppose to be sending me pics of someway they lock those things.

BUt regarding the other post. I do believe brian does make a decent living off breeding his reptiles. And im sure he doesnt mind cleaning cages. If he didnt like cleaning cages he wouldnt have thousands of snakes. He does have the luxury though of being able to afford to hire help to clean them. I would of loved to seen when it was just him and lori. I bet they were tired all the time.

[Egapal]

He does have the luxury though of being able to afford to hire help to clean them. I would of loved to seen when it was just him and lori. I bet they were tired all the time.

I know that you ment this post as a defense of Brian but I have to comment on one thing. It is not a luxury to hire help. Its a necessity. Have you ever gotten sick. I mean ever. At least once every year or two I have a day when I am just useless. Ever had an accident that made you unable to walk, or only have the use of one arm. Ever have a family member in the hospital. Ever have to go away from town for a day or two for an emergency. Its not like Brian can ask his neighbors to come care for his animals. With a quarter the animals Brian has its just plan irresponsible not to have help, above and beyond his wife. A person can only work so many hours before they work themselves into getting sick. Reptiles are more forgiving but even so animals can not wait for you to recover. The overhead for running a business is tremendous and you can't assume that Brian has the means to run to the phone or computer and buy new enclosures on a whim, not to mention the space requirements, setup, heating, cleaning concerns.

Again I am writing this to the people who think that just because Brian has a large operation he is rolling in cash. I live in an area with a lot of family farms. Many of the family's have multiple millions in income each year and struggle to save a dime for retirement, kids education, or dare to dream a vacation. You just can not judge someone unless you know all the facts, and non of us do.