Big snakes, small enclosures.

[daniel1983]

This has been a rather interesting post to read. All bickering aside....

The size of an enclosure is all about perspective and goals. What sort of behaviors will the enclosure need to allow? What goals does the keeper have with the animal?

I have seen videos of retics climbing 30'+ trees in a matter of seconds to chase after monkeys. I have also read articles describing pythons to be stationary for extended periods of time. So what behaviors do I need to let them experience in captivity? Does a retic need to climb trees to chase after prey to remain healthy? If they sit in ambush for months at a time, it is ok to let them sit in small spaces in captivity?

I have articles saying monitors can roam over a territory of over a kilometer in a day's time. I have watched green anoles cross my fenceline and down my neighbor's...that is over a 400' territory. I have seen 2' rough green snakes get from the ground to 15' up in a bush in the blink of an eye. Are the enclosures we provide adequate enough?

ALL KEEPERS provide inadequate condition with respect to natural conditions. I have yet to see an enclosure that allows ALL natural behaviors and opportunities.

I love to hear people talk about arboreal enclosure. "Check out this arboreal enclosure I built. Ya, it is 7 feet tall". Actual arboreal snakes can migrate from ground level to the tree tops. And 7 feet is providing enough vertical space? Does a snake know the difference between 3 ft. and 7 ft.? Can they tell the difference between 7 ft. and 30 ft.? Who knows.

WE keep CAPTIVE animals. What the animal "wants" is insignificant. The conditions that the animal needs to stay alive is the minimum.

The life processes that THE KEEPER WANTS to see is what matters in choice of enclosure.

If THE KEEPER'S interest is breeding, the keeper needs an enclosure that allows successful breeding.

If THE KEEPER'S interest is observation of natural behaviors, the enclosure needs to be built to allow some natural behaviors.

Enclosures suit THE KEEPER'S goals.

If the enclosure does not support life. The enclosure is a failure.

If the enclosure does not allow the life event that the keeper desires...THAT ENCLOSURE IS INADEQUATE.

We will never agree on the 'rights and wrongs' of keeping reptiles. We all have different goals and perspectives.

That is what makes the reptile community so interesting.

[DutchHerp]

While I agree with most of your stuff, Daniel, there is a bare minimum that this thread is addressing. Of course, if a breeder is interested in breeding only, the animal can be kept in the minimum adequate space.

However, I think most if not all expert (yes, I went there, Wes) monitor and large boid keepers will agree that Brian's caging is too small. Especially the monitor's.

[daniel1983]

While I agree with most of your stuff, Daniel, there is a bare minimum that this thread is addressing. Of course, if a breeder is interested in breeding only, the animal can be kept in the minimum adequate space.

However, I think most if not all expert (yes, I went there, Wes) monitor and large boid keepers will agree that Brian's caging is too small. Especially the monitor's.

Again, what are the keeper's goals?

Does the cage allow the goals to be met?

You are discussing MINIMUM requirements? Minimum requirements for what? What is the goal that is trying to be achieved? What life processes do you want to take place?

How is siting curled in an enclosure different than sitting curled in ambush? Does the snake know the difference? It is sitting waiting on food in both instances, then when breeding season rolls around it is trying to find a mate.

In response to the monitor caging, I could use the example that is thrown around frequently with respect to ball pythons. They spend alot of time in borrows don't they? A monitor in nature, sleeps in a borrow. Roams for food. Then returns to it's borrow. A monitor in a rack, sleeps in a rack, gets food brought to it, then sleeps in a rack. Is it all that different? The only thing I see different is level of physical activity. Does the monitor care if it is not physically active?

Like I said. It is all about the keeper's goals. They are captive animals. Reptiles are interesting in that if a keeper provides inadequate conditions.....the animals tend to get sick and die. If a monitor is kept in a small enclosure and does not recieve proper exercise, it will die of obesity. Reptile are not like mammals that can readily fend for themselves in bad conditions. We are their sole provider.

I find these topics interesting. I support my animals in a fashion that allows me to achieve my goals with the animals. That is my way(and just about everyone elses' IMO). My goals differ from your goals, or Brians goal, or everyone elses goals. That is what provides this community with a wide range of reptile housing possibilities.

I just wanted to throw all that out there to add to the discussion

[wilomn]

Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?

Has anyone even heard a rumor that Brian was using those tubs for permanent homes?

I've been chuckling all day at all the SUPPOSING some of you have been doing.

Has anyone actually talked to Brian?

[burnziesballs8]

daniel = finally smart person!! great posts.....
for the animals natural habitats.... we all suck, and are doing harm, we all do our best to make sure the animal is happy but we can't provide the world to them, even a dog with a 4 acre backyard fenced in.... is still fenced it.... leave brian alone, he is doing the ENTIRE reptile a huge favor by giving snakes a better name then anyone not owning snakes gives them

keep it up brian!!

[daniel1983]

Anybody know the meaning of the word TEMPORARY?

Has anyone even heard a rumor that Brian was using those tubs for permanent homes?

I've been chuckling all day at all the SUPPOSING some of you have been doing.

Has anyone actually talked to Brian?

If the keeper's goal is to provide temporary housing, then all is well.

People do alot of ASSUMING over the internet. Brian's 4-6 minute videos have been coming out for over a year now. That gives alot of ammo for peoples' speculations....and it doesn't help that you only see a small fraction of his faculity in the videos.

Like if I had shown a picture of a snake in a dirty cage, people could assume that I do not clean any of my cages. They have no idea that it was cleaning day and things were clean a few hours later.

People are funny like that.

[mumps]

Brian has been getting slack for his monitor keeping for quite some time. Yet I am unable to find an edition of SnakeBytes where he shows us the "actual enclosures". Or even the makings of one.

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.
Tubs are ridiculous for monitors, and Wes, I have been keeping large varanids since 1990, and I know what I'm talking about. Tubs DO make great water containers for small monitors and medium snakes. And I have been keeping giant snakes since 1986.

You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves. The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...

We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go. I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.

Not that you'll listen to me, you've got your own greed to think about...

Chris

[Spaniard]

You guys all belong to the same group that think reptiles are stupid, don't know their keepers, can't learn or even recognize themselves. The same group that thought Mommy Croc was eating her young...

We haven't even scratched the surface as far as reptile behavioural studies go. I can tell you, after 30+ years of keeping them, that they are smarter than you think and you are torturing them in those tubs without any stimulation/opportunities to be themselves.

Not that you'll listen to me, you've got your own greed to think about...

Chris

I'm interested, after 30 years what exactly in the way of behavior has shown you that these are smart snakes? What exactly is torture to a snake? How have they expressed it to you? What exactly entails a snake being itself?

If we've yet to scratch the surface of behavior studies how can you be so sure of your own conclusions?

Just curious...

[mainbutter]

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are

I've seen you bash tubs a few times and I just want this cleared up..

Do you believe tubs are poor containers for ALL snakes? Or just the large species you have worked with?

What exactly makes a tub worse than other housing?

It can't be the dimensions of tubs, because there certainly are tubs that perfectly match the size requirements for many different species.

It can't be temperature/humidity issues.. because if anything tubs are better for that than any other housing (I'm convinced even the expensive plastic housing out there isn't as good at maintaining temps and humidity).

So what is it you dislike so much about tubs for snakes?

P.S. FWIW I don't use tubs for any of my animals. I just don't think they are bad for most snakes.

[zackw419]

Tubs suck for snakes, I don't care what your goals are.

Chris

Im going to have to strongly disagree with that statment.

Tubs are great and offer snake privacy and space as long as an adequate tub size is provided.

In this case, they don't seem to make giant tubs big enough for adult, giant pythons.

Like I said, no matter how long you have been working with snakes doesn't mean you are doing everything right.

Other than how he is keeping some of his larger snakes and monitor. I just want to say, I love what brian does for the reptile community. This thread was not meant to be an attack, just an observation.