Help for Baby?

[Gooseman]

out of curiosity, what is your response when she gets too rough when playing?

When play sessions are good she grets a treat as reward, when they arnt, play time stops immediatly when it gets rough, i tell her to sit which she almost all the time till she calms then she's in the kennel. There is probably a more constructive way to go about it, but I dunno how.

[katiadarling]

That sounds about like I would do. When play gets too rough and you stop to let her calm down, I might start play again to reward her for being calm. Hard to say not being in the situation though.

[Gooseman]

Good to know I'm not doing something way off base.

The thing now is that I want to continue to work with her. Kinda a pride thing but I don't want to pass her off, I want to finish what I started. But even if I'm able to help how she interacts with humans while playing, there's no garuntees. And even less so with how she interacts with other dogs. So my reason for needing to find her a new home still stand. What I've gained is knowledge that true lovers of pits believe there to be a good fit out there. That to the right person shed be respected and treated as such. Problem is, I can't seem to find a place/person willing to make the effort when there's soooo many pits out there with less training needs to make a safe pet. So I've made a complete loop back to where I began.

Except now I have Caesar's place to call and see if they have any advice.

[pitbulls4me]

I wont comment on any fo the Cesar Milan talk but I will comment on the Baby issue.

She is a pitbull right? And she is not liking your other dogs right? She is doing what she is bred to do. People get this breed and think that if they raise it around other dogs and love it that it will love other dogs too. Not the case when dog aggression is bred into them. Thats when owning a pitbull in a multiple dog/animal household, you take on more responsiblity. We have 3 pitbulls and 4 (soon to be 5) other dogs in our house. Does everyone get along? No.... if fact one of our pitbulls killed one of our dogs because we were too nieve and thought that she was raised with other dogs and being 3 years old that she wasnt ever going to be dog aggressive. We found out the hard way. We now crate and rotate. So only certain dogs are out at the same time and we never give the dogs any reason to fight (so no toys left down, we dont eat when they are out, and everything is low key as high energy and excitement gets them worked up). I say that if you got the dog and you knew its breed you kind of owe it to the dog to keep her safe and take the responsibility that comes with owning a dog let alone a pitbull.

I am a dog trainer and do pitbull rescue. I have dedicated my life to educating people who own the breed or show interest in it. I also make sure dogs are safe and happy. I made mistakes but have learned from it and share my stories in hopes that someone else will in turn learn from that. I in no way mean to down talk you but it is a little frustrating when people get the breed and then expect the exact opposite of what the dog was bred for. I will say there are exceptions as there always is with anything and there might be that handful of pitbulls out there who dont show a lick of dog aggression (DA). I kept my pitbull who killed our Boxer and she is a great dog today. We worked on heavy obedience training and now she can go for walks and not act like a maniac trying to get at the other dogs but I dont let her meet any of them, she just has to tolerate going by them.

By the way where are you located?

[pitbulls4me]

I also was re-reading everything and you mentioned about rough play with you... Can you give me more detail on that? A lot times it is a lack of respect and can be fixed with some easy training. You can control so much by changing something so small. Dont be afraid of her, it will show to her and will make her more uneasy and on edge. She is looking for a reaction from you. If she plays to rough and you squeal or pull back or push her down, thats all play to her. Also with her wanting all your attention it is not jealousy as dogs do not have the same emotions people do at all. That is a dominance issue. I think she just needs some good training and needs to be kept away from the other dogs.

Of course I am not you and whatever decision you decide to make will ultimately be the best for you and Baby. Good luck and I know its a tough spot to be put in. They are not an easy breed and definitely not for everyone (you may have just figured that one out with your situation as it is all too common)

[Gooseman]

Tina, thanks for writing.

When I first picked Baby up off the road, I'll admit I've had very little experience with pits or other large agressive dogs, but much has changed over the past year and a half I've spent from her. I do not know if you've gone through the threads I have linked to, all the ones in which I had asked for advice on the board are there but they kinda document the first few months of me having her, and how I had to learn quickly not to show her fear etc. I used to be a Petco employee, I am not by ANY measure saying that gives me any credibility or experience with other dogs, but I did make a few friends in the College Station, Texas area from the shelters that would come up to adopt animals out. I pumped them for as much info on helping Baby overcome her fear of the public etc and I think I've taken more from my experience so far than she has from me.

I am going to try and not sound argumentative because that's really not my point. But as much as I may sound like I think love and affection will make her a joyous lapdog, I have NEVER expected anything like that from her. Within the first couple weeks she scared any chance of that outta me when I found out she had a great dislike of baseball caps. Things had just gone sooo smoothly with Baby that when another pit rescue came along, Cruiser, I'll admit I got a little cocky and was a little niave thinking it would work out.

In all honesty, although Baby and Cruiser live in the same household they rarely were allowed in the same room as each other, and usually only on calm occasions. Baby is just too hyper now that she's come out of her shell, she's just not allowed in certain areas of the house for obvious reasons. Cruiser on the other hand just spends his days laying on his side staring at you.... for hours... he's a lazy bum, but I blame that on the heartwarm meds he's on. They have seperate crates even on other sides of the house. It's not like I just brought home another pit mix and expected them to share the same quarters and for them to get along just fine and dandy. Never really intended for them to cross paths too often. But the first time they fought i made the mistake of taking them to go potty at the same time and this last time I left them in the living room together for a few moments while I went to the kitchen to grab a drink... literally out of their sight for no more than 10 seconds to grab a coke from the fridge, and that's all it took for Baby to be holding on to cruiser by the ear. And Hallie the beagle... well, she goes where cruiser goes. Those two are like soulmates lol. Except under no circumstances do Hallie and Baby hang out. even for a moment.

Yes, looking back both instances were totally preventable had I not slacked off a few times. Both of which were my fault and were instances in which I broke my own rules. So as I said when I started this thread, I love Baby, and if she was my only dog things would be fine and dandy, but I messed up and thought that I could pull it off. So it's not really fair that my mistakes are forcing her out of a home, which I'll openly admit, but the alternative isn't any better. It's kinda odd... the more time I spend with them, the more I want to keep her... I don't want to rehome her because she scares me, but rather because I've allowed two mishaps already, the third may be fatal. And that's unacceptable in my book. If I can find her a good home then there's no point in putting Cruiser and Hallie at risk.

And I don't openly show that I'm afraid of her, and to say I'm afraid may not be the best way to put it. It's like watching mythbusters and they shoot a pig carcass (to simulate the human body) with a Pirate ship cannon and your just in awe of the destructive possibilities... and then you look at your feet and there's a cannon just laying there... loaded. You respect that kinda power. You know what it could do if it got unleashed on you. It doesn't mean you go cry in your room, just that your fully aware of whats in front of you.

The playing that in my mind crosses the line between good/bad playtime is when she decides she WANTS that frisbee... or that ball... or that rope... and she'll lunge towards them with everything she's got, and let's be honest... she has poor aim. She doesn't so much direct her aggression at me, so much as anything that stands between her and whatever we're playing with. But one thing that I am very proud of is that she knows that when I say sit, she'll stop MOST of the time on the first call. She may fidget and whimper a bit cause she still wants the toy, but as long as I remind her she's supposed to be sitting, there she'll sit until the mood passes, or she ends up in the kennel. So it's not really an intimidating me into letting go, but rather... I'll shut my eyes and leap in it's general direction, but if I grab your hand... whoops, sorta deal. So I reward the times we play and she doesn't leap at me, and the times she does... gametime over.

[pitbulls4me]

I totally understand where you are coming from as I was there with my little female I got, Ellie. She was 4 1/2 month olds, 11 pounds, had a ruptured eye, chained to a tree and scared out of her mind. She was afraid of everything and her own shadow. With time and training I brought her around, I also socialized her with other dogs of course to no avail. It only took her a few weeks before she was comfortable with me but 4 months before she even stopped growling at my boyfriend when he walked in the door and I think another couple months before he could pet her. I had her up for adoption as I had no intentions on keeping her. In the 8 months that I had her as a 'foster' she attacked my 9 year old pitbull but she was the one who walked away hurt. We learned from that. Then with trying to adopt her out and people knew that she didnt like other dogs and she was a shy mess with new people there was no hope for this poor girl who had absolutley no chance when she was confiscated from her original owners. So again I failed and let the dogs outside together to go to the bathroom because she liked my mom's dogs and my other pitbull (I guess she was more dog selective back then) and thats when she killed our Boxer. Again completely my fault. I still have her, no we take extra precautions when we let her out and everything but she is my absolute favorite dog! We went through professional (and I am not talking about Petsmart) training and it helped tremendously.

Thats kind of my story and my real introduction into the breed but we found out the hard way in situations like yours. She was adoptable perse but I loved that little dog and didnt think after all she had been through that she should die a short life.

Now when I was saying that everyone tries to train these dogs with love and whatever it wasn't directed towards you in the least bit as I have no clue on how you are handling things, I was just speaking in general. I think now that you have 2 pits you need to be on your toes even more... Cruiser might be ok with Hallie right now... but maybe not tomorrow. I would keep everyone totally seperate until you figure out what you are going to do or forever.

With the rough play time and her accidentally getting your hands, stop using your hands. Dont give her the opportunity to mess up. If you know she does something you dont like when you do this one thing then dont do it at all. IF you want to play with the rope toy, create a flirt pole. A flirtpole is a PVC pipe with a cap on the end and rope running through it with a toy on the end of the rope. You swing it around and pitbull goes crazy trying to get it! They are fabulous and I am lazy so when it comes to excercising my dogs and I dont have to do much, oh goodness do I love it.

I hope this helps some, as you have lots of options. I just see a pitbull who has many marks against her to the publics eye. With all the BSL going on it makes it even harder on you because if you adopt her out and she grabs someone's hand by accident trying to get a toy the press will have a field day with that. I honestly think she is a normal pitbull with a little bit higher drive especially now that she has a few fights under her belt. I know you will make the best decision you can for both you and her. If there is anything else I can do or have any questions please let me know. i will be following this thread as well.

Also a good forum to join is Pitbulltalk.com or pitbullforum.com. Both have a lot of experienced people on it, maybe you can find someone in your area to help you out either with rescue or professional training.

[Gooseman]

That's actually a pretty neat trick with the toys. I'm gonna have to look into trying it.

Once again, thanks everyone for the input, truly!

[pitbulls4me]

How are things going? How are you doing as i know this is all mentally and emotionally straining?! Hope all is well.

[Gooseman]

Right now things are going... That's about the best description I've got. The dogs never see each other anymore just to be on the safe side as I search for a new home for Baby as well as doing more research on working with dogs with aggression issues. I have no intention of playing the odds in trying to make this situation last forever, but rather just want all the information I can get my hands on. What it's coming down to is trying to find an experienced owner for her. And in a college town that's hard to find. I mean, there are plenty of people who have worked with dogs, but most are college aged students and I would have a hard time giving her to a new home with a 20 yr old. Mostly because Baby has over 10 years left in her, and sometime during that period they may want to have a kid and I don't want that becoming an issue. I may have unreasonable expectations, but I'd rather have those then just handing her over to the first person who'll take her.

Mentally it's all turned to a gray area. At first after the fight what had to be done was very black and white. Now I'm having a hard time saying that if I don't manage to find a capable foster in a month, I'm putting her down. But in reality, a month is more than I care to risk given how things have accelerated in the last month.