Are ball pythons a domesticated species?

[Jenn]

Nope. Not even close. There is no such thing as a "pet" snake. Humans have tried to domesticate every animal on the planet. With just a few exceptions like chickens, pigs, cows, horses, dogs, and cats (and in my opinion cats shouldn't even be on the list), no luck. In fact, animals that humans can't control are usually exterminated. It is truly a people planet we live on. Get along with us or die. The word tame is very confusing to most pet owners. Lots of animals won't bite you if you pick them up but that doesn't make them tame.

[TMoore]

People have posted why they don't consider balls domesticated animals, but no one has given a reason why they could be considered domesticated.

Plenty of people voted Yes. Do you guys have a reason why?

[MarkS]

I am guessing that MarkS lives in a suburban to urban area. Now I could be wrong but that's the only excuse I can think of for a person to assume that an animal was domesticated until proven otherwise. Most of the people on the planet assume an animal is wild until proven domestic, its a much safer approach to life.

Pretty tiger....I am going to call you Tony.......oh he wants to play..........aaahhhhh

And there you have the gist of the entire problem... People making assumptions without ANY burden of proof whatsoever.

ARE there any iron clad proofs of domestication? Is there a legal definition of domestication? Or is it just an arbitrary decision by whoever thinks they have the right to be the expert of the day?

Do you think snakes are non-domesticated or domesticated just because YOU think they should be ?

[MATT FISHER REPTILES]

do they live in your domain??????? yes or no????? then that is your answer. break down the word.

[ZinniaZ]

Domestication implies to me that the animal perceives a benefit or receives a benefit from living with humans. Dogs are believed to have domesticated them*selves*. They saw human civilization and got close to us and began living cooperatively with us. To me, that is a crucial component of domestication. The animal and the humans are mutually beneficial to each other. Now, not all critters that are domesticated chose it. Cows. They are so domesticated now and such a large part of human culture that they don't even exist in the wild (much) any more. A jersey cow would not survive if she wandered off and decided to be wild. She would hardly consider it. The grain and the hay come from THERE. (Cow points to barn.)
So my definition of domestication depends on the ANIMAL seeing benefit from humans and the human benefitting from the animals. Snakes-- we benefit from them. Companionship, fascination, etc. I do not think the snakes see us as crucial or even important to their existence.

[Egapal]

do they live in your domain??????? yes or no????? then that is your answer. break down the word.

Ok breaking down the word doesn't get you where you are going. The problem with that line of thinking is that the word has taken on a different meaning based on its use. I mean if I ask you if your mom is domestic that means something completely different than if I ask you if an animal is domestic. The word domestic used the way its asked "are ball pythons a domesticated species?" is asking something other than does your ball python like to do things around the house. I mean if that's the question than once again, no my ball python doesn't do anything around the house. She pretty well sits in her hide all day. I can't get her to cook, clean or so much as take out the trash.

Domestication as its asked involves humans selectively breading to produce an animal that is significantly different from the wild base animal

And there you have the gist of the entire problem... People making assumptions without ANY burden of proof whatsoever.

ARE there any iron clad proofs of domestication? Is there a legal definition of domestication? Or is it just an arbitrary decision by whoever thinks they have the right to be the expert of the day?

Do you think snakes are non-domesticated or domesticated just because YOU think they should be ?

In this case assumptions are fine. Animals are wild until proven otherwise, not the other way around. No there is no iron clad proof or legal definition. There rarely is. Its not arbitrary, we are looking at the various definitions of the word and deciding what we think. You seem to really disagree with the assertion that they are not domestic but all you have put forth so far is the various morphs as evidence. I would have to say that morphs do not alone show domestication. I will give you that they are a result of selective breading but so far all we have done is change the colors of the animal. As it stands most ball pythons kept in captivity are no different than snakes one generation from the wild. We have not significantly changed their genetics, behavior or appearance. People will surely disagree with that last sentence but I would ask that you compare the variance in genetics of the most complicated morph from a normal to the differences between a dairy cow and a wild bovine, or a dog and a wolf.

I will definitely agree that as far as snakes go ball pythons are the most domesticated of them all. But that's not saying much.

[MarkS]

Domestication as its asked involves humans selectively breading to produce an animal that is significantly different from the wild base animal

I don't see that at all in many animals that have long been considered to be 'domesticated' Even a quick glance at most poultry will show that many of the ducks, geese or turkeys are NOT significantly different then their wild counterparts. In some cases, not even the paint job is different. The only difference being that some of them are living in the wild, and some of them are living in farmyards... Physically, many of them are identical.

In this case assumptions are fine. Animals are wild until proven otherwise, not the other way around. No there is no iron clad proof or legal definition. There rarely is. Its not arbitrary, we are looking at the various definitions of the word and deciding what we think.

Actually, animals are NOT wild until proven otherwise... I think that the main criteria should be WHERE THEY ARE FOUND IN THE FIRST PLACE....... I tend to think of animals FOUND in the wild as wild animals, however I tend to think of animals FOUND in my basement where I have been breeding, feeding and caring for them through many generations to NOT be wild animals.

You seem to really disagree with the assertion that they are not domestic but all you have put forth so far is the various morphs as evidence.

I've re-read my posts, and I don't see where you can even make the assumptions that you are. No, I DON'T 'really disagree with the assertion that they are not domestic' at all. That's YOUR preconceived notions that are coloring your comments. I've merely been questioning why people have been SO adamant that their snakes are wild animals. It seems to me that the main reason people have been putting forth the argument that ball pythons are NOT domesticated, is because they don't WANT them to be domesticated and for no other reason. I have not heard a reasonable argument on EITHER side of the argument about why they either should or should not be considered domesticated. Personally I would rather not label them either way until I have a more thorough understanding of what 'domestication' actually is.......

I would have to say that morphs do not alone show domestication. I will give you that they are a result of selective breading but so far all we have done is change the colors of the animal.

And I would put forth that this IS a good reason to suspect that they are a domesticated species. You can NOT selectively breed wild animals. Wild animals will choose their own mates. Only a domesticated animal could be forced to mate with another that was not of it's own choosing.

As it stands most ball pythons kept in captivity are no different than snakes one generation from the wild. We have not significantly changed their genetics, behavior or appearance.

See my earlier statement on poultry. Many of the accepted 'domesticated' lines can not be differentiated from their wild counterparts. The only difference is in their upbringing. The only real difference between captive bred ball pythons and captive bred turkeys is that turkeys have been bred in captivity for a few hundred years longer. In any kind of evolutionary timeline, that's extremely insignificant.

I will definitely agree that as far as snakes go ball pythons are the most domesticated of them all. But that's not saying much.

Well, except for maybe cornsnakes, kingsnakes, and several dozen other species of colubrids that have been captive bred for over a dozen generations.

[ZinniaZ]

however I tend to think of animals FOUND in my basement where I have been breeding, feeding and caring for them through many generations to NOT be wild animals.

So if you find a couple of baby foxes, they are domestic if you care for them feed them and breed them in your basement?

I have not heard a reasonable argument on EITHER side of the argument about why they either should or should not be considered domesticated.

Actually, I think there have been several good points, including mine above about the cooperative relationship between domesticated animals and humans. Domestication is not something that happens over the course of fifty years. It is a longer process and it is about the society of each species integrating with each other. Domestication is almost a beneficially parasitic relationship. The domesticated animal cannot thrive without human intervention and the humans depend on the domesticated species.

And I would put forth that this IS a good reason to suspect that they are a domesticated species. You can NOT selectively breed wild animals. Wild animals will choose their own mates. Only a domesticated animal could be forced to mate with another that was not of it's own choosing.

You most certainly can. You can grab a deer out of the wild, grab another and put them together and have them breed. Wild vs domesticated is not as simple as "Does the animal live in the wild or in someoene's house?" It is much more complex than that.

[Ssthisto]

I am one of the people who would state (with certain caveats) that the royal pythons and corn snakes that are captive bred for multiple generations do qualify - or will qualify with further generations - for "domesticated" status.

Domestication criteria 1: Flexibility of Diet
Our captive-bred royal pythons are fed on a diet of commercially raised Mus musculus and Rattus norvegicus - both of which are foodstuffs that are easy to provide in captivity but are significantly NOT what Python regius is consuming in the wild. Selective breeding for ready consumption of easily obtainable foodstuffs meets the criteria of "flexible diet".
Domestication criteria 2: Reasonably Fast Growth Rate
Birth to ability to breed in a year - despite wild animals almost certainly taking longer to mature enough to successfully reproduce? I think that qualifies as a rapid growth rate, especially when compared to horses and other large hooved mammals that are considered domesticated.
Domestication criteria 3: Will Breed in Captivity
Well, I don't think it's possible to argue this one, no matter what Animal Rights groups might want to say about reptile keeping... there are multiple generations of captive-bred animals out there, and verifiably multiple-generation-captive-bred based on the visual mutations they display.
Domestication criteria 4: Pleasant Disposition
Royal pythons certainly have one of the nicest and most tractable temperaments of any snake I've ever worked with. You get the occasional biter, but generally they acclimatise well to handling... better than any domesticated Syrian hamster!
Domestication criteria 5: Unlikely to Panic
Again, this is a disposition thing - they may panic, but they don't bolt in such a way that they're liable to harm themselves or their handler; I wouldn't actually consider this a major criteria simply because many domesticated animals (pigeons, sheep, budgies, goldfish) also display panic behaviour on occasion.
Domestication criteria 6: Social Hierarchy
I don't believe this is a genuine domestication criteria. I don't think a domestic chicken thinks YOU are the head of the flock (especially if that chicken is living in a battery farm) any more than a goldfish sees you as the head of a shoal.

And one thing that the "criteria" on Wikipedia hasn't mentioned is the selective breeding for human-desirable traits OR the commercial usage of the species. We have done both of these things to royal pythons.

Now, I would say that WILD CAUGHT royal pythons absolutely are not domesticated - and until there are no further wild-caught bloodlines coming in, it is unlikely that there will be a scientifically described Python regius familiaris.

[MasonC2K]

I voted no. Ball Pythons are defintely docile by nature. Some individuals are arguably tame. However, they are not domesticated quite yet. Mainly because if you left one out in you house, you might never see it again.

I will say I don't believe in the "human heirarchy-dominance" aspect as a requirement. Cats are domesticated but your can't tell one what to do or guide it. Well, I have seen video of people who demonstrate the contrary but how they accomplish that is very controversial so I am not going to count those rare instances.

I imagine if any reptile every was bread into domestication, that it would be cat-like. But I realyl don't see that happening.