When would it be considered a breed?

[ChrisS]

Wasn't really sure where to post this as it has to do with genetics but not bp genetics. It could be any animal or plant. In my case it's about chickens. So here is my question to all of the geneticist out there. After crossing 2 or more breeds of the same species and going thru the process of F1, F2 , and so on. Once the subject breeds true, how many generations before its considered a breed and not a mutt?

[sorraia]

I believe once it is breeding true, it is just a matter of getting it recognized as a breed. The key with creating a breed, is getting consistency in the results when you breed two of the same together. It is probably a little more complicated than that, but that's the simplified answer.

[satomi325]

F1 is really tricky because there can be so many variations of the animal. I would say it would become it's own breed once all individual offspring start looking alike and are bred to a set standard.

Examples:
Labradoodles vary so much. I still see them as a designer mutt dog. I haven't seen two that looked similar. And most are still just F1 or F2s. Maybe with more time, we can see more consistency.

Bengal cats, however, I believe are their own breed now. There have been traits established as a standard that breeders keep breeding for. Cats that are ~F5 and beyond do look similar and overall have a consistent look.


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[ChrisS]

So once I achieve the standard I want and it breeds true it is considered it own breed?

[HypoLyf]

Here's a bit of information from the AKC as far as dogs are concerned (to become AKC recognized). It's not too in-depth, but it's a starting point.
http://www.akc.org/press_center/facts_stats.cfm?page=8

The following information comes from a Bengal breeder's website. Maybe similar rules apply to new breeds and other organizations... I honestly have no idea, but I think it's cool. The information I posted below the link is from the site, so go there for more Bengal history/info.
http://www.lakemountainbengals.com/i...d=10&Itemid=71

Bengal cats are recognized as a breed by TICA. F1-F3 are recognized as "foundation bengals" and are considered hybrids. To be able to participate in TICA-sanctioned shows, the animal must be four generations removed from their nearest, wild Asian Leopard Cat (ALC) ancestor.

Note: SBT means that the animal has three generations of Bengal to Bengal breeding in its pedigree.

(ALC) Asian Leopard Cat + (SBT) Bengal = F1 Hybrid

(SBT) Bengal + F1 Hybrid = F2 Hybrid

(SBT) Bengal + F2 hybrid = F3 Hybrid

(SBT) Bengal + F3 Hybrid = F4 Bengal (SBT)

(SBT) Bengal + F4 (SBT) Bengal = Bengal (SBT)

[wolfy-hound]

I have to point out that if there is another species in the mix, it's still a hybrid. That's one of the reasons that some people oppose hybrid snakes in things like carpet pythons, because after you get a few generations away, you might not be able to tell the mixed from the pure and no matter HOW little the percentage is, it's Not a pure. So no matter if it's 5th generation away from the wild cat, it's still a hybrid, it's just a low percentage hybrid. (like wolf-dog hybrids with the 10% or 50% or 90%... it's still a hybrid).

That said... I understand where they're coming from because they are talking about fixing the breed characteristics... not eliminating the wild genes. So it's a "breed" because the kittens produced will look like 'This and this and that', no matter which two you breed together. That's the "breeding true" part.

With chickens, you may have "throw backs" that continue to pop up in clutches of eggs for up to 10 generations. "Fixing" the breed characteristics can be difficult unless you are ruthless in how you choose your breeders and which animals you cull from the breeding program(not necessarily kill them, just don't use them to breed).

With the "semi-wild" chickens running about in my family's town of Mayport, you generally had a very distinct "look" of chicken. The hens were small, brown with touches of black. The roosters were bright colored, small, black with red hackles and gold saddle hackles. BUT.... you'd see the odd chickens in the same areas, produced by the same hens/roosters. So would they be considered a "breed" if they still produce sports and throwbacks? I myself don't think they are a "breed" although I'd say they are a "type". If I took those chickens and bred them a few more generations, being careful in what makes it into the breeding program and what is eliminated... I could produce a very consistent breed within perhaps 10 generations EVEN though they are a "type" already.

So... after all this rambling(sorry I'm rambling on like a doofus), I would say that you can consider your chickens a new "breed" if they produce NO sports or throwbacks, no matter which of the chickens you put together. I would think that you would need to prove it out by breeding several pairs of those chickens together, mixing which pairs you put together over a couple years to show that ALL the offspring show the correct colors and body shape and behavior. This would include the identical comb type, amount of plumage, colorations, body type(heavy slim long legs short legs leg feathers) right down to the color of the 'ears'.

As far as legally, you'd have to contact one of the chicken breed associations.

[ChrisS]

After doing some reading on the APA (American Poultry Association) and their acceptance on new breeds it seems that they really don't like to add them. So if I were to create a new breed it would only be for my enjoyment. I have an idea of what direction I want to go, now it's just a matter of find the space to handle the large amounts of birds I'll have to go through.

[wolfy-hound]

The Poultry associations will not encourage new breeds because they'd be inundated with every home flock keeper insisting their "special hen" is a new breed, even before it's produced a single chick. If you fix the breed characteristics and present the new 'breed' with genetic info, lineage and records with photo proof of the breed characteristics breeding true through generations, you'd probably be considered seriously. You just need your proof lined up properly, instead of showing up with a chicken in hand going 'Look! It's a new breed!' which is what 99% of people do.

Like hatching out a slightly different baby BP, which would be a possible dinker... but instantly declaring it to be a new morph. To be taken seriously, you have to show it's a genetic trait.