are these balls worth this price asked?

[rabernet]

Agree to disagree then...but you're not going to adopt albino ball pythons...this is the closest thing to helping one out in need anyone will ever get....otherwise if he is a shabby breeder theyre going to sit there in poor condition for the rest of their lives...poor snakes...

By "rescuing" (buying) these snakes, in those conditions, you are telling that person that it's ok to keep them in those conditions, it means little to you, and you're putting money in their pocket to encourage them to do it again. Afterall, you didn't set a higher standard for that seller.

"Hey, people will buy from me, no matter what conditions I keep them in, I have no incentive to improve - I'll just churn out more, so another person can "rescue" them from me (for $600)."

[Pythonman]

I just find it funny that everyone cares alot more about where their snakes come from then where they sell their offspring...I just hope you all look into and scrutinize potential buyers the way you do potential sellers....These people wouldn't have the morphs if the responsible breeders were responsible with their offspring in the first place...

[Adam_Wysocki]

Agree to disagree then...but you're not going to adopt albino ball pythons...this is the closest thing to helping one out in need anyone will ever get....otherwise if he is a shabby breeder theyre going to sit there in poor condition for the rest of their lives...poor snakes...

What do you think he's going to do with the money paid for the snakes? .... In my experience in this biz, theres a good chance the he's going to buy more snakes and most likely keep them in the same condition ... are you going to buy them all? ... How about his breeders, are you going to buy them too? And what about the next guy that does it ... are you going to rescue all of his "poor snakes" by buying them?

Since it's not realistic for you to personally go out and buy (aka "rescue") every single "poor snake" that is kept in less then stellar conditions, why not take a more logical route. Why not be outspoken against the practice. Why not make as big of a stink as you can to let people know that it's not acceptable to treat animals that way? Why not hold people that chose to profit from the animal trade to the highest possible standard by not supporting anyone that doesn't treat the animals in their charges with respect. I have a feeling that if more people put their foot down and said "no more" instead of looking the other way or making excuses, there would be a whole heck of a lot less "poor snakes" to buy (aka "rescue") from "shabby breeders" (your words, not mine).

Just some food for thought.

-adam

[Adam_Wysocki]

I just find it funny that everyone cares alot more about where their snakes come from then where they sell their offspring...I just hope you all look into and scrutinize potential buyers the way you do potential sellers....These people wouldn't have the morphs if the responsible breeders were responsible with their offspring in the first place...

So now it's your contention that it's the breeders fault that the offspring of the snakes that they sold to someone are left to sit in their own urine for a photo shoot?

-adam

[Tosha_Mc]

I'm going to play devils advocate here for just a minute. Look at these pictures and tell me how clean these cages are and if you'd buy from them:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1106_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1130_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1138_.jpg

[waltah!]

I know that on any given day at any given time cages can look like crap. The difference is that priorities are different for different people. If one of my cages needs to be cleaned, then that's the priority. If i'm getting ready for work or to go out or go to bed then none of that happens until the cage is cleaned. The last thing on my mind would be to take pictures. I certainly would not send that pic out with the intention of selling them.
I feel a responsibility to the animals, and even to the breeder to take good care of them. I know that when Adam sells a snake that he wants it to go to a good home, but the breeder is in no way responsible for the later actions of the buyer.

[Adam_Wysocki]

I'm going to play devils advocate here for just a minute. Look at these pictures and tell me how clean these cages are and if you'd buy from them:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1106_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1130_.jpg

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n.../IMG_1138_.jpg

I love a good devils advocate!

To answer your question, it depends ... are those animals being sold at "dirty cage prices"? cause if they are ... boy oh boy, I might just be tempted!

Ya know, for the life of me, I can't figure out a way to wiggle out of this sticky wicket with grace ... makes me want to go downstairs and take some pictures of dirty cages and post them up ... Do I wish every breeder/keeper (including myself) always had clean cages ... absolutely ... Do I realize the impossibility of that wish? ... absolutely ... But, with all of the animals that I've bought and all the money I've spent, I can say without a doubt, that not a single one was chosen from a picture of the animal in a dirty cage or picked out of a dirty tub at a breeders facility. Does that make it better? Maybe, maybe not. But if I personally have to start somewhere, for me, holding the presentation of a seller (ANY SELLER) that is presenting an animal for sale to the public to a little bit of a higher standard ain't a bad place. Once I climb that Everest, I'll move on to the next one.

How was that for a mega weaselly answer?

And with that, I'll return to my dream world of clean cages and cloacas hand wiped after every BM before I manage to shove my foot ever further into my mouth.

-adam

[waltah!]

I love a good devils advocate!

To answer your question, it depends ... are those animals being sold at "dirty cage prices"? cause if they are ... boy oh boy, I might just be tempted!

Ya know, for the life of me, I can't figure out a way to wiggle out of this sticky wicket with grace ... makes me want to go downstairs and take some pictures of dirty cages and post them up ... Do I wish every breeder/keeper (including myself) always had clean cages ... absolutely ... Do I realize the impossibility of that wish? ... absolutely ... But, with all of the animals that I've bought and all the money I've spent, I can say without a doubt, that not a single one was chosen from a picture of the animal in a dirty cage or picked out of a dirty tub at a breeders facility. Does that make it better? Maybe, maybe not. But if I personally have to start somewhere, for me, holding the presentation of a seller (ANY SELLER) that is presenting an animal for sale to the public to a little bit of a higher standard ain't a bad place. Once I climb that Everest, I'll move on to the next one.

How was that for a mega weaselly answer?

And with that, I'll return to my dream world of clean cages and cloacas hand wiped after every BM before I manage to shove my foot ever further into my mouth.

-adam

Way to wiggle, bro! LOL

[Adam_Wysocki]

Way to wiggle, bro! LOL

Yeah ... sometimes my big mouth writes checks my ass can't cash ... well, maybe more than sometimes.

[repeats to self] silence is golden ... silence is golden



-adam

[Pythonman]

Actually thats not what I said...What I did say is that alll the big time breeders will advise you to scrutinize people to the fullest before buying a ball python, but they do no research when selling their valuable morph to someone...In general, any old joe with the money to buy a snake can...Point being the seller wouldn't have the snakes to breed if people were more careful with their snake lines (overbreeding, irresponsible selling etc) and we wouldn't be in this mess...every breeder knows their snakes are going to bred 90% of the time, but no blame falls on them for irresponsible selling, but for anyone to buy "any old joe's" snake now that the breeder got his money, is highly advised against by....wait for it...the big breeder...and the poor snakes are still stuck sleeping in urine with no chance of a better home...and I like to give people the benefit of the doubt until I speak to them and see where their heads at...like I said before...this picture alone is not enough for me to completely dismiss the seller or the snakes...whats the risk $600 and a $300 trip to the vet...whats the reward...a great pet...hopefully a great breeder...and from what I see...a pretty nice high contrast albino project for a decent price if that's what you're looking for...


Tosha,
Those cages are definietly alot worse than the one we're talking about...looks like month old newspaper...the picture thats up looks like it could be pee from that day, last night whatever..but I'm sure those pics are from someone reputable that will have no problem selling their snake bc everyone will give them the benefit of the doubt because it's a "big breeder." But to answer your question I'd need to know the price, where I found them, any references, and speak to the seller on the phone...thats a big deal for me....but if someone wants to sell me a bumblebee or pied half price and the pic is in one of those cages...sue me but I'd think about it and go through the motions as I discussed above...

Sincerely,
the other devils advocate