Am I a bad person!

[anendeloflorien]

Wow, I've definitely learned a lot from reading through this thread. My BP will take either Live or F/T and she's big enough now to where a mid-sized mouse is perfect for her. I just got a breeding group of rats and I'm really torn on what method to use when they actually begin breeding. I know I only have one BP right now and it might not seem to make sense to some people for me to have rats to breed for feeders but they are my pets also. I'm thinking though that with some rats having 10-15 babies in a litter I'll wind up having to euthanize and freeze some of them for a later feeding even if I do have 2-3 BPs by then. I could not see myself "whacking" one of my rats. That's just not right.

We built a CO2 chamber as a couple of our snakes take F/T and we breed our own rats. Our CO2 chamber is the home grown variety that uses baking soda and vinegar. It is two plastic tubs stacked on top of each other with the mixing chamber on the bottom and the rodent tank on top. Holes drilled in the lid and bottom of holding chamber that are glued together and presure relief hole on one side of the mixing tub. It works, but you can see everything that happens and if you watch it doesn't look very humane either. Adult rats will go crazy for about 30 seconds before finally passing out. If you mastered the old method one whack and it was done.

Hey Glory, could you possibly PM me or post how you made and use this CO2 chamber? I've seen some other versions but they all seem to require dry ice and no place up here seems to carry that unless you want to buy it in bulk from a chemical supply co.

As for the OP I would never try to kill a mouse the way that you did but you didn't know any better at the time, now you do. So hopefully you will never feel the need to put an animal through suffering like that again.

[ViciousBliss]

I'm amazed no one has mentioned what, to me and lots of other herp keepers, is the quickest and most humane method of pre-killing-cervical dislocation. When you do it properly, death is intantaneous, by far the fastest I have seen of any method. CO2 doesn't even come close.

It's easy to accomplish. Holding the mouse gently by the tail, lower it onto a surface on which it's feet can readily gain purchase-a screen tank cover works perfectly. The rodent will naturally attempt to pull itself away from your grasp, stretching itself out slightly. At this point, gently bur firmly place a pen, sexing probe, or other long cylindrical object just behind its skull, while at the same time giving a short, sharp tug to the tail. This will easily detach the cervical vertebrae (and thus the spinal cord) from the base of the skull, causing instant death.

It's never pleasant to have to take a life, but such occasions do come up. As responsible keepers we must strive to do our utmost to prevent suffering of ALL our chargers-whether they are pets or feeders.

this just seems like an inexperienced person would (or could very easily) do it all wrong. i'd be afraid to do it wrong and make the rodent suffer further... i would be pretty nervous to do it this way, but then again i feed live so.... i don't really have this problem...

the only time i fed my snake a dead mouse was when he killed it and kept tryna eat it booty side first. he got frustrated and kinda turned a cold shoulder to it after he attempted to eat it tail end first like 3 times (literally turning his face away from the mouse in frustration... hehe) so i picked the mouse up by the tail and slowly pulled it away from him. he swirled around and chomped it's head and ate it promptly after. that is my only experience in feeding my snake a dead animal i had him do the killing

[Jenn]

I should make a video of my corn snake feeding. It's rather amusing.. I don't know if its just because shes been fed f/t or pk all her life but she has never put a tough grip on the mouse.

She grabs it, wraps around it slightly and when I let go of it with the tongs she takes her mouth off of it and it plops over..

She never was fed live, so feeding her live now could be bad. :]


If you know what your doing I don't think whacking is that bad. I personally can't preform a CD.. Its makes sense and when other people do it, it looks easy.. but I don't know why I can't do it.
I've never had a mouse show any living reaction after a whack. It'll twitch and I'll check for a heartbeat and feel none.

I switched an adult corn fron ft to live. This snake was full grown and had never even seen a live mouse. The first strike was bad and it took a while for the mouse to die. But today this snake has the most deadly strike and kill of any of my snakes.

[The Green Man]

As has been said already, there is no F/T - PK debate, so the best we can do as snake enthusiasts and owners is to decide what we're comfortable with when it comes to feeding our snakes. Here's the bottom line -- if you're going to keep snakes, you're going to have dead mice and rats in your home. How they get that way is a question only you can answer.

My story, to toss on the pile. Badoo, my regular BP, eats only live. He was fed, as are all the snake stock at PetSmart, F/T for the first few months of his life, and I switched him immediately to live-and-kicking prey. Here's why:

My first snake, Inferno, was a Tarahumara Mountain King. He ate F/T without a single problem for the first year of his life, but then suddenly turned up his nose at an F/T crew mouse and refused to touch them from there forward. I got about three good months out of PK, during which time I tried several different methods of prekilling and finally settled on CD for my preference. After those three months were over, my Tarahumara insisted on live prey, even though by then his killing instinct was a wash. Someone said "aggressive flopping", and that's pretty accurate. After a few really touch-and-go moments, during which I'm not ashamed to say I employed the squeeze-to-death-with-tongs killing method in order to save my snakes life in an emergency, I was forced to start -- and spend the next six years -- feeding an adult kingsnake live fuzzies by the bucketload because a mouse with its eyes open and it's wits about it was too much a match. I believe that feeding grossly disproportionate prey items for so long stunted my kingsnakes growth, and I believe it also did damage to my heart because every. Single. One. Was. Swallowed. Alive.

Me, personally, I refuse to put myself or my snake in that position again. I feed only live to Badoo, because I insist he always know how to *eat* live prey.

That said, if you're going to prekill, please learn the CD method that's been described in this thread. And if you're going to feed live, you must learn not to be squeamish about watching the snake do it's thing.

[blackcrystal22]

As has been said already, there is no F/T - PK debate, so the best we can do as snake enthusiasts and owners is to decide what we're comfortable with when it comes to feeding our snakes. Here's the bottom line -- if you're going to keep snakes, you're going to have dead mice and rats in your home. How they get that way is a question only you can answer.

My story, to toss on the pile. Badoo, my regular BP, eats only live. He was fed, as are all the snake stock at PetSmart, F/T for the first few months of his life, and I switched him immediately to live-and-kicking prey. Here's why:

My first snake, Inferno, was a Tarahumara Mountain King. He ate F/T without a single problem for the first year of his life, but then suddenly turned up his nose at an F/T crew mouse and refused to touch them from there forward. I got about three good months out of PK, during which time I tried several different methods of prekilling and finally settled on CD for my preference. After those three months were over, my Tarahumara insisted on live prey, even though by then his killing instinct was a wash. Someone said "aggressive flopping", and that's pretty accurate. After a few really touch-and-go moments, during which I'm not ashamed to say I employed the squeeze-to-death-with-tongs killing method in order to save my snakes life in an emergency, I was forced to start -- and spend the next six years -- feeding an adult kingsnake live fuzzies by the bucketload because a mouse with its eyes open and it's wits about it was too much a match. I believe that feeding grossly disproportionate prey items for so long stunted my kingsnakes growth, and I believe it also did damage to my heart because every. Single. One. Was. Swallowed. Alive.

Me, personally, I refuse to put myself or my snake in that position again. I feed only live to Badoo, because I insist he always know how to *eat* live prey.

That said, if you're going to prekill, please learn the CD method that's been described in this thread. And if you're going to feed live, you must learn not to be squeamish about watching the snake do it's thing.

I don't think eating the fuzzies live would have caused him harm.. a lot of snakes will do that with younger prey and have no problems.

As for Jenn, thanks but no thanks. I'd rather have my snakes on f/t because it's easier, less risk (In my eyes, I always worry when feeding live.. it's just more relaxing for me.), and a lot less complicated for my breeding schedule. When my KSB needs pinkies, I don't have a new set of pinkies every week like some people do (I just don't need that many ASFs yet!) and frozen really is the only realistic thought behind this. I'm working on getting a better schedule for my ASFs breeding, but either way.. I still don't need that many mice. :]
She's never seen a live mouse, and I don't know what she'd do if she did, sure it could turn out like your situation, or the mouse could bite it and cause her death. I just don't know if I want to take that risk with her.

[zues]

Didn't read teh entire thread so if someone has already said this I'm sorry. Grab it at the neck with your tongs like you did and grab the tail and jerk. It will cause instant death if done right.

[blackcrystal22]

Didn't read teh entire thread so if someone has already said this I'm sorry. Grab it at the neck with your tongs like you did and grab the tail and jerk. It will cause instant death if done right.

That's not a very good way to explain it.. You want to make sure you have the tongs behind the skull so that you can separate the vertebrae. And yes, it was already explained on here. :]

[NexusRebellion]

your not a bad person.. but as others have said.
there are more humane ways of putting the animal out.

[SecurityStacey]

I don't think eating the fuzzies live would have caused him harm.. a lot of snakes will do that with younger prey and have no problems.

They said cause damage to their heart... I think they mean they felt bad about the fuzzies being eaten alive.

[Lateralus_Love]

I feed live because it's more convenient for me. The largest rats I get are medium sized, so they're not too much of a danger (like a large or jumbo would be) but I still supervise everyone, including my 08's with pups. I spend about half an hour to an hour to make sure they feed right - right for the snake, and right for the rat. Once they've struck, I check to see a) where the rats face is so no one gets bit, and b) if the snake is constricting in the right spot and hard enough. I once walked away for ten minutes after Isis struck at her rat, came back and it was still alive and wiggling, because she'd bitten it's but and coiled around it's tail. I hadn't noticed it..but the rat laid there in agony for ages. I felt so bad afterward..So I've always made sure that everyone's coiled around the food so it's a quicker death. No one cares if i pick them up for a few seconds and rearrange their coils, so it's all good.

I've got a soft heart =/ The only reason I watch them eat is to make sure the snakes are safe and it's as quick as possible for the rats.

If I could get a hold of a good stock of frozen rats, and actually have a place to put them, I'd feed F/T. I don't have the heart to PK them myself. I ended up keeping two weaned pups a couple weeks ago cuz they were way too cute Of course, I spent the extra money and gas to drive partway across town to get two more rats though heh.

But yea. This is my feeding procedure. I don't think you're a bad person. I think you could have done it better. But you had good intentions.