Sand or no sand?

[littleindiangirl]

And that's sort of my point. Your comments are saying; housing any lizard on sand is a death warrant. Even in the face of more experienced people giving their side of the story.

Perhaps, it isn't a death warrant to house on sand. Perhaps the level of threat is higher in mind than it is in actuality.

Both sides have excellent points, and we can want something for others as hard as we want, but ultimately that person will make up their own mind.

As Daniel has said (and I thank him fully for this) there are no definitives in reptile keeping.

We can minimize the risk in other ways. Feeding in large ceramic dishes, using half tile half sand, physically removing the animal from the cage...

If the animal still insists on eating sand, like Wes has said, then yes, perhaps they should be removed from the gene pool. That's nature, nature is not compassionate.

Humans are smart, there is more than one way to minimize a risk, and more than one way to house an animal successfully.

EDIT:
Oh, and by the way. I am NOT saying you need to stop being an advocate for your point of view and stance. I am hoping though that you will keep it as that. A point of view and opinion on one way that works.

[ADEE]

good post Connie great points. there are certainly two sides to situations such as this.

[daniel1983]

Its not critizing, its disagreeing with putting an animal in harms way over "looks"

So I willing put my animals in harms way because I keep them on sand?

That comment really strikes a nerve.

This has nothing to do with my "lack" of skill, I have had beardeds housed on sand and while I had no problems doing it we certainly wouldnt do it again because it isnt the "Safest".

It has everything to do with lack of skill. You are doing what is 'Safest' for YOU because in YOUR care the reptile will not do well with YOUR choice of substrate. The animals actually live on soil in the wild...no tiles, no newspaper, no reptile carpet....and they seem to do extreamly well too. Just because you or someone else chose an inappropriate soil to keep an animal on without success does not make everything similar unsafe to use.

And just wondering.....

How many types of sand have you used to say that sands are not safe? Sand is a very broad classification, why not be specific about the types you and the others used? Fine grain sand or course grain? Manufactured or natural? Spherical or rough grain shape? Little details are very important when keeping reptiles please be specific.

Also, any part of the captive environment can become harmful if the reptile's needs are not met. It is not always the 'substrate's fault'.

The owner of the leo in question just got her very first reptile (the leo) when she got it about a week ago, there couldnt be less "lack of skill" then that

Inexperienced keepers should play it safe. I never said otherwise. However, if they always play it safe....they never gain experience. They simply keep reptiles for years using 'safe' methods and distribute information like "there is no reason under the sun to ever, EVER use sand"

We know whats safest for our animal and thats what we choose to use.

That is great. Do what is best for you and your animals. Don't tell me I do not care for my reptiles' health or 'safety' because it doesn't fit with your opinion.

If you can show me evidence that housing a hatchling on sand is a good idea I would happily step off, and evidence isnt "well i didnt have any animals die because of it" im talking real evidence.

How is successfully keeping an animal using a particular method not evidence? Please explain.

Applying your way of thinking....all I have to say is...

I have seen pictures of lizards cramming themselves under tiles inside the enclosure only to end up smashing themselves beneath it. People that use tiles as a substrate are only putting their animals in harms way since tiles should never be used. However if you can show me evidence that housing lizards with tiles in the enclosure is a good idea I would happily step off, and evidence isnt "well i didnt have any animals die because of it" im talking real evidence.

LMAO...where is your evidence?

I've never heard of this "kink" in the digestive tract of juvenile leos. Can you provide some source information on this?

I have never heard this kink either. I would love to see the source info too.

[ADEE]

Wow Daniel, where to start.

I didnt suggest that you werent taking care of your animals by housing them on sand, if you want to go with experience, you have much more experience with keeping them on sand, so according to you its safest. Isnt there still the risk that someday you could have an issue with impaction? I have yet to have an issue with housing my leos on sand because i choose not to use sand, for me its easier and more sanitary to use a peice of tile. In the past I personally have used playsand (as suggested by members) from home depot. Im sure I have a macro picture of the sand if you so wish to see it. Desiree has not yet posted the type of sand she is currently using, i do know for a fact however that Ben's where she got the sand does not supply/carry play sand.

I would still like to know where there is evidence that its good/healthy to use sand over tile/newspaper/exc.. i personally (meaning me) dont understand why you would house on sand if there is a risk of injury. I understand your comment of it not always being the substrates fault but why add insult to injury. I would rather know for a fact it has nothing to do with my choice of substrate. I do not have evidence that housing any reptiles on papertowel, tile, exc is the best but i do know it takes away the risk of ingesting their substrate because there is no substrate to ingest.

Because I dont house on sand that makes me an inexperienced herp keeper? If that was the truth then every single breeder/hobbiest that houses all their reptiles on paper towels inexperienced, im sure there are dozens of those type of people who breed high numbers of animals, keep hundreds of resident reptiles does that make them inexperienced just because of their substrate choice? for some reason i disagree with that statement.

Im not saying you dont take care of your animals, everyone takes care of their animals when their basic needs are kept up. I will agree to disagree with your choice of substrate vs my choice of substrate. I would love to house my geckos on sand, i think it would be cute to see little foot prints in the sand but not at the risk of them ingesting it, but thats me what you do is totally up to you, your animal your choice just as i said previously in this thread, it doesnt make it right or wrong.

[daniel1983]

you have much more experience with keeping them on sand, so according to you its safest

I never said anything was 'safest'... I simply said sand is not alway dangerous. EVERY substate has risks.

I have yet to have an issue with housing my leos on sand because i choose not to use sand, for me its easier and more sanitary to use a peice of tile.

Then your methods are for PERSONAL reasons. You kept leos on sand without issue, but you chose to house differently because something was easier for you. So it really has nothing to do with sand being functional substrate? I know keepers that use sand for 'ease of cleaning' because they can sift out feces and only do full substrate changes as needed. That does not make your methods wrong......just a different way of doing things.

I do not have evidence that housing any reptiles on papertowel, tile, exc is the best but i do know it takes away the risk of ingesting their substrate because there is no substrate to ingest.

Again this focus on what is 'best' or 'safest'. Can't substrates be equal?

I ask again to show me evidence that there is no risk with using tiles. I have given you an honest example of a problem known to cause issues while keeping tiles in enclosures with lizards. Animals get under them and get crushed.

ALL SUBSTRATES have certain risks with them. With knowledge, a keeper can limit that risk.

A manufactured sand with sharp edges has a higher chance of causing an impaction than a spherical midsized grain sand. A lizard kept hydrated has less of a chance of becoming impacted than a dehydrated animal.

A keeper can successfully house a lizard on sand if properly chosen. There are alot of sands out there however. SAND is not a bad substrate.....specific types of sand are bad substrates.

Saying sand is bad because a specific brand of manufactured sand has caused impactions...is like saying....Ball pythons are dangerous because some other pythons can grow to 15 feet in length.

Get the point I am trying to make?

Because I dont house on sand that makes me an inexperienced herp keeper?

No. Sticking to a 'safe' method, does not allow someone to expand upon their knowledge of how different substrates function. Therefore, the keeper lacks experience with substrates not previously declared 'safe' by others.

If that was the truth then every single breeder/hobbiest that houses all their reptiles on paper towels inexperienced, im sure there are dozens of those type of people who breed high numbers of animals, keep hundreds of resident reptiles does that make them inexperienced just because of their substrate choice?.

Breeders use what they use because breeding is the goal.....it deals more with objectives. Low maintenance, high productivity = profit.

i think it would be cute to see little foot prints in the sand but not at the risk of them ingesting it, but thats me what you do is totally up to you, your animal your choice just as i said previously in this thread.

I keep my lizards on soil because it is 'natural' compared to other stuff. It has nothing to do with appearance. I pick a soil that can be ingested without issue and I keep my animals hydrated. No problems with ingesting the substrate....I see them eat it all the time when going after insects. No problems.

Problems occur when people chose a bad type of sand or do not care for their animals properly. If the keeper makes the right choices there should be no problems. That is the issue. All sands are not health risks.

[wilomn]

The poster was not directing his posts to a leo Beardies( he clearly says lizards, sorry that I did not make that clearer. as I said is was just adding that in) have a kink in their DT that straitens out over time, but leos have TINY DTs that can not handle sand if they take a scoop of it in.

bd, I think your south end is spouting without consulting your north end.

YOU brought up this mysterious neverbeforeheardof kink. Now, either tell us more about it or admit that you made it up to prove a point; sort of like the one where you tried to mislead readers with the necropsy on the gecko kept on Calcisand and NOT on real sand.

If you don't have facts, if you can't back up what you say, perhaps silence should be an option you do more than ignore.

[Colin Vestrand]

well, arguing aside, i keep my leos on calci-sand. i watch them when they feed and have never had an issue... like D says, every substrate has some inherant risks.

[ADEE]

I have not kept leos on sand, i have kept bearded dragons on sand. I had an issue when my bearded was young (turned out to be unrelated to substrate choice and was purely stressed animal) and took the sand away until it was an adult at which time i returned it and because we fed out of deep dishes we never had a problem with her ingesting the sand (we used play sand btw, never used other types/brands).

My leos have only had either paper towels or tile. Your right, every substrate has a risk although I dont see a 50gram leo lifting a 18x18 tile nor do i see them getting stuck between tiles as we have only one and it is snug to the glass (a worm cant even get between it) but i suppose I see your point on other substrates and if we had a different size enclosure. To me, it does have to do with its ability to function as a safe choice of substrate.

I do see your point (bp's and broad classifications of python) if sand works for you and it works for other members then great I just PERSONALLY wont use it for our leos because I dont like the risk, for my leos. Perhaps I dont desire to have that "experience" under my belt, to each his own. I would prefer to not be an "experienced" substrate user if that is how I would be classified. I do see how it could be used, I understand many different types of substrates but for me using tile is best for what I use it for.

Thank you for your educated input, im sure it will be of help to many members. You certainly made this an interesting debate.

[Beardedragon]

bd, I think your south end is spouting without consulting your north end.

YOU brought up this mysterious neverbeforeheardof kink. Now, either tell us more about it or admit that you made it up to prove a point; sort of like the one where you tried to mislead readers with the necropsy on the gecko kept on Calcisand and NOT on real sand.

If you don't have facts, if you can't back up what you say, perhaps silence should be an option you do more than ignore.

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/v...c.php?p=620058
Second post down

Now go to Google, and type in Kink in the digestive track of Bearded dragons if you want to know more Not that hard

The calci sand impaction link was just an example. If you would like to see more impaction in leos go to google as well.

EDIT: apart from you being rude, did you not see that I was adding on the FACT to his information, I was not going into detail and thought people would also like to know. I love how you call me out and say im making things up when you could have saved yourself the time and looked it up first to see if it was true or not?

[wilomn]

http://www.beardeddragon.org/bjive/v...c.php?p=620058
Second post down

Now go to Google, and type in Kink in the digestive track of Bearded dragons if you want to know more Not that hard

The calci sand impaction link was just an example. If you would like to see more impaction in leos go to google as well.

EDIT: apart from you being rude, did you not see that I was adding on the FACT to his information, I was not going into detail and thought people would also like to know. I love how you call me out and say im making things up when you could have saved yourself the time and looked it up first to see if it was true or not?

Isn't taking the word of some anonymous poster sort of like saying you heard from this guy at a bar......

That isn't PROOF that there is a kink. YOU brought up kinks. I have NEVER heard any such thing. I admit though, I've only been keeping and breeding, though not breeding for the last 4 years or so, beardies since 89 or 90.

I stand by my earlier statement. Either provide PROOF or consider silence.

Show me a study, a necropsy, someone other than some nameless person, who has CONCRETE evidence of this so called "kink" and then I'll believe you.

Until then, you're spouting nonsense.