Sand or no sand?

[wilomn]

So your saying that as long as only a couple die its perfectly fine ?? To me thats not being a good owner if you think that way.What if your favorite gecko is the one to do it? Sand harbors bacteria like a sponge and is a pain to clean, I just do not see why people use it? Impaction happens over time, each little grain on their food slowly adds up, ive seen it plenty of times in leos and beardies. Now, if your happy that only a few LOVED pets are dieing from sand and as long as a few hundreds are doing fine, then so be it.

I'm saying that your lack of intellectual obsevation is evident. In abundance.

Sand does NOT harbor bacteria. It is non-organic. It is dead. I cannot support bacteria if it is dry. If you keep it wet, then, and only then, can bacteria that are found in reptiles and are detrimental to them, be found.

You go right ahead and love your lizard just as much as you want. I won't fault you for it, it's your choice. I'll feel as I do about mine regardless of how you feel.

If one dies of impaction, it was NOT meant to pass on its genes. Not every single one of every single animal is meant to survive and reproduce. We step in and change up Nature's plan. Cool. You do whatever you need to in order for you to feel good about yourself.

How about you give me the same option without your getting your backhairs all up over it?

You've shown how you feel, proven that you will try to fool us with data that is NOT even pertinant to the discussion at hand, and that you anthropomorphise just a tad more than I do.

Give your lizard all the hugs and kisses you want. I will continue to treat mine like the lizards they are. My oldest will turn 16 this summer. I MUST be doing something wrong, eh?

[Beardedragon]

Most impactions occur for two reason.....the lizard swallows something larger than it can pass (i.e. a small pebble) or the lizard is not hydrated enough to pass the items.

A properly hydrated lizard can eat sand, dirt, clay.....and it will all just pass through the system.

A dehydrated lizard will eat sand, dirt or clay and have it turn into a brick in their gut. They eat sand, their mouth and throat moisten the sand, and their intestines suck the moisture out in an attempt to rehydrate the animal. It is like a brick manufacturing process inside the animal when they eat soil substrate while dehydrated. No wonder the animals die.

Young lizards are more prone to impaction because they are more prone to dehydration. I think the substrate plays a small part of the issue, but the quality of care the animal receives plays a bigger role.

If you do not have the skill to care for the animal while on a soil substrate....use something that is safe for YOU to use and try not to critize others that know what they are doing.

I agree, but I want to add this to that: a huge part that plays in impaction is a kink in their digestive track that straitens out as they grow The kink makes them alot more prone to getting impacted.

[SatanicIntention]

And again, it's not the problem with using FINE SIFTED PLAYSAND from Home Depot.. It's a BIG problem using Calci-Sand. They will eat it to obtain the minerals from it, and in turn WILL get impacted with it.

Pet stores keep their Leos on the Calci-Sand because that is what the store management tells them to do. They don't have any other choice.. My Petsmart keeps them on carpet until they are adults.

Juvenile leos don't have much body fat, body fat is what holds fluids and hydrates the body. Therefore, they are much more prone to dehydration than adult animals, who carry alot more fat in their bodies. Less fat equals less extra water carried.

If you're going to use sand, GO TO HOME DEPOT and get PLAYSAND... It is at least a safer option and the Leo won't be as inclined to eat it.

Prevention is the much better solution. I would rather you provide the correct environment now instead of the gecko paying for it later when you have to take her to the vet for them to perform surgery, or when she dies of sepsis because her intestines are so blocked up with Calci-Sand, the blood flow is cut off. I would hope that as an RVT I wouldn't tell you the wrong thing.

Pet store employees are employed at the store because they want to make money. The pet store also wants the employees to sell items(even if they are heat rocks and CalciSand) because it makes the store money. They may think it is ok to keep the lizards and other animals on the CalciSand because it's all they've been told. Pet store employees generally don't get paid enough to do any research, and they think that if the store provides it, it must be safe, right?

Prevention.. Do it.

[ADEE]

If you do not have the skill to care for the animal while on a soil substrate....use something that is safe for YOU to use and try not to critize others that know what they are doing.

This has nothing to do with my "lack" of skill, I have had beardeds housed on sand and while I had no problems doing it we certainly wouldnt do it again because it isnt the "Safest". The owner of the leo in question just got her very first reptile (the leo) when she got it about a week ago, there couldnt be less "lack of skill" then that (not meaning it offensive Desiree at all, its purely to make a point) I on the other hand have had reptiles of different species for well over 10yrs, my fiance much longer then that. We know whats safest for our animal and thats what we choose to use. Its not critizing, its disagreeing with putting an animal in harms way over "looks" If you can show me evidence that housing a hatchling on sand is a good idea I would happily step off, and evidence isnt "well i didnt have any animals die because of it" im talking real evidence.

Thank you Becky for your comment, i agree with you. It is all about prevention (preventing an issue by safe guarding the animal from possible hazards)

[littleindiangirl]

The owner of the leo in question just got her very first reptile (the leo) when she got it about a week ago, there couldnt be less "lack of skill" then that (not meaning it offensive Desiree at all, its purely to make a point)

Ashley do you remember when you got your first Bearded Dragon last October? You had just about as much experience as she does, with a more high maintenance animal to take on.

I find dichotomy in your statements and actions. It's ok for you to buy a beardie with little or zero experience, yet you are in no simple terms telling this girl Desiree that she isn't experienced enough to make decisions for her own animal? She seems to be doing just as much research as you did.

It's been made very clear that babies don't do well on sand, but neither do your leos look like babies to me. They look like juveniles, almost adult size. I could be wrong, I'm just assuming that they were all the same size as yours.

It's also been thoroughly agreed that Calci sand is NOT the way to house any lizard for reasons already made.

I didn't read where Desiree said she bought calci sand... but I could be overlooking that.

[qiksilver]

I'm sorry I may have missed something. I thought it was all about a healthy happy reptile. There are many ways to go about that, and just because you disagree with one of the ways that doesn't make it any less viable. Daniel justified what he said very well, and I agree, it all comes down to supporting the health of the animal, because after all, they aren't on tile or some other completely barren substrate in the wild. Like he said go with what you're comfortable with.

If I had lost animals from using sand I'm sure I would have switched over and maybe been as adamant as you are, but I haven't. Go with what you know, give your opinion, but don't bash something just because it scares you. I wouldn't suggest to use sand to someone who is not comfortable with it, but as long as you maintain the environment and health of the animal there should be no problem. There are at least 3 people active on this thread who have had successes using sand for many years on end, therefore sand can't be the worst thing ever.

[littleindiangirl]

And just in case you need some reminding (and maybe give others a little insight)

10-31-07
Becky tells you to not keep your baby beardies on sand.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=sand

11-01-07
Becky tells you again you probably shouldnt keep them on the sand as babies.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=sand

11-02-07
After a scare, you finally get rid of the sand.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...highlight=sand

Yes, not a long period of time, but you most likely would have kept the sand unless this happened, I bet ya

Advice is just advice, not an order.

[wilomn]

I agree, but I want to add this to that: a huge part that plays in impaction is a kink in their digestive track that straitens out as they grow The kink makes them alot more prone to getting impacted.

I've never heard of this "kink" in the digestive tract of juvenile leos. Can you provide some source information on this?

[Beardedragon]

I've never heard of this "kink" in the digestive tract of juvenile leos. Can you provide some source information on this?

The poster was not directing his posts to a leo Beardies( he clearly says lizards, sorry that I did not make that clearer. as I said is was just adding that in) have a kink in their DT that straitens out over time, but leos have TINY DTs that can not handle sand if they take a scoop of it in.

[ADEE]

Connie, your absolutly right but when you know better you do better, Beckys comments were right on and I now (that i know better, through experience call it what you want) dont want anything bad to happen, and at the time when the beardeds were babies i thought it would be more work then what it was worth to use tile/papertowels but i know better which is why im trying to aid in directing her away from sand... her using loose substrate worries me. At the time I was doing it for looks also, much like Desiree is. I agree you have to start somewhere when it comes to anything (cameras, animals, kids, exc) I was coming back with my comment of her being new to reptiles to make a point to the PP.

Fact of the matter is desiree is a family member and of course I wouldnt want anything to happen to her or her pets.. I also know her children would be very upset if they lost their gecko. I dont feel as though im being bossy about it, I really in the bottom of my heart want nothing but the best for her animal. For the record, these leos are young (7g) and NO WHERE NEAR adult size. I wouldnt even consider them juvies as my adults are 50+g.