Absolutes in Reptile Care

[daniel1983]

Are there any measurements of the temps inside the insulating burrows and termite mounds that have been heated during the day? I would have to dig, and I think Frankykeno may have the link, but I believe that I remember reading that they tend to maintain consistent temps in the high 80's, even at night when the outside temps drop.

I have some charts in monitor lizard books showing temp variation in termite mounds throughout the year. Interesting stuff since inside the mound is pretty close to a constant temperature at any given location. Lace monitors tend to lay eggs in termite mounds....and unlike pythons....their eggs need constant temps for the HUNDREDS of days it takes to incubate

[starmom]

Are there any measurements of the temps inside the insulating burrows and termite mounds that have been heated during the day? I would have to dig, and I think Frankykeno may have the link, but I believe that I remember reading that they tend to maintain consistent temps in the high 80's, even at night when the outside temps drop.

Yea, I know that termite mounds are excellent at keeping constant perfect temps. That's why termite mounds are used by so many different animals.

But they don't all live in termite mounds! I think this fallacy got started because the gravid females tend to seek out burrows and termite mounds as a safe place to lay their eggs, and the collectors of WC ball pythons know to look there for an entire clutch. These snakes live in shrubbery and mangroves also. Given this, I think a several degree temp gradient (around each average high and average low) is appropriate...

[Jenn]

Great post Dan. I listened to all the absolutes when I started keeping snakes, and it probably kept my snakes alive. But I have learned so much since then. Now I don't follow any of the absolutes. I keep my temps just a bit cooler, my hides are not identical, most of my enclosures are glass, my humidity runs a bit high, and my snakes love me!!! Just kidding about that last part. But my snakes are all very happy and healthy and still teaching me everyday.

[bigballs]

i think that no matter how, "like the wild", our enclosures are they are still very unlike the wild because the wild is natural and our enclosures are not. no matter how much we study a natural habitat of an animal we will never be able to perfectly recreate it. thats why we have guidlines for keeping specific species and many of us stick to them because they work when keeping these animals unnaturally. obviously many of us deviate from these guidlines a little for various reasons and the majority of us who do, do it for the health and wellness of their animals due to a greater understanding of them that comes with experience. i would love to provide my animals with eveything they can get from the wild but i would have to release them back into their natural habitat to do so...

i think this is why we have guidelines for keeping certain species but i dont view them as absolutes. i view the keepers who speak in absolutes maybe as inexperienced keepers but i may also view the keepers who deviate radically from certain guidelines as idiots. but it all depends on the situation and is never black and white. i also think that if youre teaching a beginner keeper how to take care of his first reptile then you have to at first say "do it like this" because he doesnt have the knowledge or experience to do it like us yet.

well i could go on but you guys must be sick of me already...

[rabernet]

But they don't all live in termite mounds! I think this fallacy got started because the gravid females tend to seek out burrows and termite mounds as a safe place to lay their eggs, and the collectors of WC ball pythons know to look there for an entire clutch. These snakes live in shrubbery and mangroves also. Given this, I think a several degree temp gradient (around each average high and average low) is appropriate...

That's interesting - where have you read about them staying in shrubbery and mangroves?

I don't find any mention of that in my copy of Pythons of the World, Vol. 2: Ball Pythons by Dave and Tracy Barker.

p.7

The information that is available to us about the natural history of ball pythons is derived primarily from observations of ball pythons in Ghana (Cansdale, 1944, 1955: Gorzula, 1998; Sprawls, 1989, 1992; Noah, pers. coml) Because of the general similarities of topography, climate, plant community associations, prey and predators, we think we can safely extrapolate, however, that what is known about the species in Ghana should be at least generally true elsewhere in its range.

It is the rainy season that mark the passing of time in this area of the world. Throughout the range of ball pythons, from mid to late autumn until early spring, it is hot and dry. Gorzula (1998), Aubret et al. (2003), and Noah (pers. com.) comment that during this time, ball pythons are relatively inactive and are found predominately in underground refugia, mostly in burrows excavated by rodents, tortoises, and monitors; ball pythons are often found in burrows in the bases of active and inactive termite mounds.

According to Noah (pers. com.), during November through January, collectors find male and female snakes together in burrows - sometimes in paris, sometimes in small groups. Also according to Noah (pers. com.), the snake collectors refer to this as the time of barabara, a colloquial term for the breeding season.

In late winter, in the middle of the dry season, professional snake hunters begin to collect. Hunting is a matter of going to a likely are, most often in or near pasture and croplands, and walking through the area, looking closely for burrows. Ball pythons are rarely encountered above ground, but evidence of their nocturnal movements is apparent at the mouth of the burrows they inhabit (Greer, 1994: Gorzula, 1998).

Great post Dan
Here's some food for thought about the temperature/gradient issue. You hear much thrown around like, 92 hot side, 82 cool side, etc. Does anyone know the average temperatures for the area in Africa that balls come from?(Togo, Benin, Ghana). Here's a link to average temps for that region over the entire year:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/trave...omnav_business

As you can see temperatures vary quite a bit. The AVG daytime is upper 80's - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. The AVG nightime is mid 70's or so - meaning it could be warmer or cooler. And during the winter there it only gets to the low 80's and at night can get below low 70's - yet the seem to survive and thrive quite well under these conditions.

Not taking any sides here, just throwing out some different ideas.

Of course I had to come back to this once I got home and could reference this book:

p. 6

We investigated several sources for relevant climate data and decided to use Qwikcast (http://www.qwik-cast.com) for the following data on temperatures and precipitation. This website presented thorough data in a way that was easy to interpret (for each data point it indicated the period of time on which the average is based), and it included data from many localities throughout the range of P. regius.

To simply summarized the climate in which ball pythons are found, it could be said that because of weather, most localities are not popular tourist destinations. Most ball python localities are hot and humid in the day, temperate and even more humid at night. Daytime temperatures in the 90s (degrees F) are not uncommon during most of the year. During the hottest and driest six months of the year, temperatures exceeding 105 degrees to 115 degrees F (40.5 degrees to 46 degrees C) are recorded at many localities.

For comparison to the average annual temperatures of localities in the range of ball pythons, one should consider that the average annual temperature of San Antonio, TX is 69 degrees F (20.5 degrees C) and of Phoenix, Arizona, is 73 degrees F (23.5 degrees C). Even the warm average annual temperatures of 76 degrees F (24 degrees C) in Miami, Florida is cooler on average than the coolest locality in the range of ball pythons for which we can find record.

[starmom]

Hi Robin~ I read it in a piece of research that I got off of the data base via grad school. I'll see if I can find it again, though I did use it in a response about a month ago and cited the information. I'll try to find it again in my stuff or go to the database.

[starmom]

Here we go Robin~
Citation:
Luiselli, L. & Godfrey, A. C. (2002). An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria. East African Wildlife Society (40), 220-227.

Ummm, I don't know where to go from here. Do you want me to scan and email the article to you?

[rabernet]

Here we go Robin~
Citation:
Luiselli, L. & Godfrey, A. C. (2002). An investigation into the composition, complexity and functioning of snake communities in the mangroves of south-eastern Nigeria. East African Wildlife Society (40), 220-227.

Ummm, I don't know where to go from here. Do you want me to scan and email the article to you?

That would be cool - not to prove any point or anything, but because I enjoy learning as much as I can!

Did they specifically cite ball-pythons in this investigation?

[MasonC2K]

I agree with the Dan's post. I think this best sums it up:

[Scotty tells Geordi to boost one of the impulse engine systems]
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: The engine won't take that kind of pressure.
Scotty: [laughs] Where'd you get an idea like that?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: What do you mean, where'd I get an idea like that? It's in the impulse engine design specifications.
Scotty: [grinning] Regulation 42-slash-A-15?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Yeah.
Scotty: Forget it. I wrote it. A good engineer is always a wee bit conservative, at least on paper.

[starmom]

That would be cool - not to prove any point or anything, but because I enjoy learning as much as I can!

Did they specifically cite ball-pythons in this investigation?

Yep!