Absolutes in Reptile Care

[rabernet]

*grumble*

I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...

Cass, sadly - many new owners don't touch even a hair of the detail that you and Rick did when setting up glass enclosures. If new owners went through the painstaking detail that you did to get glass set up properly, then I absolutely agree that glass works great!

Unfortunately, they either aren't inclined to put in the time or the money to do it correctly.

I've never felt you've had to fight for your "right" to keep your snakes in glass.

[daniel1983]

*grumble*
I hate that this is a "for granted" absolute...I hate having to stamp on my "glass soap box" on this website so often to fight for the right to safely and correctly house my PET snakes in glass...

But who do you have to stand on you 'glass soap box' for? Is it the experienced people, beginners who are just repeating what was recommended to them, or both?

Nothing wrong with a different method as long as it is done in a good way

I have big plans for a ball python enclosure that incorperates what is best about custom plastic cages, rack system tubs, and glass terriariums. I just have to get my shed finished before I start work on it.....and it is going to be something people are not used to seeing for ball pythons.

[wilomn]

We use NEVER and ALWAYS in this language all the time in various circumstances, it does not mean we mean it as an absolute.

Perhaps you would be better off speaking ONLY for yourself.

You see, some of us use words to say what we mean. I don't say always when I mean sometimes. I don't say never when I mean on occasion.

YOU may well do that, and I think that is part of the problem with teaching people anything, especially reptile care. You will say NEVER do that, meaing don't do it until you have the experience to do so. You will say ALWAYS do this, meaning do this until you have the experience not to.

How about just saying what you mean?

If I say never, I actually mean not ever.

If I say always, I truly mean every time.

Try it, you'll be surprised how well it conveys what you actually mean to say.

[Spaniard]

I guess summed up, most NEW keepers don't have the experience necessary, and by giving them a plethora of options, they are going to take what appears to be the easy way out. Often to the harm of the reptile, simply because they do not understand what they are doing on each level.

This is almost exactly what I was going to say.

I've seen it happen many times where someone is asking a question in a thread; they receive 6 responses telling them not to do something and then 1 response from someone telling them its ok. In most cases being new to the site doesn't help the inquiring person know who is experienced and who is not.

This is where the person who is asking a question has some decisions to make, and I think the route they choose is one of two.

Route 1 = People who really care about their animals and are willing often to do whatever it takes to make sure they're properly set up. Buying new equipment, trying new ideas etc.

Route 2 = People who like their snake but view it more as an object and are not going to go above and beyond to make sure everything is perfect.

I think "absolutes" are needed for route 2 people. Otherwise there would be no getting through to them, they would just latch on to the one person who says what they want to hear and only the snake suffers after that.

After enough experience and time in the hobby you realize that there are many ways to take care of these animals and you start to experiment on your own.

[Rapture]

Great thread, Daniel! There are obviously many different ways to successfully keep these animals, and some are better than others in different situations. I have been getting a little tired of seeing one member criticise another about something they were not asking for advice on. I understand if it is someone you know is inexperienced and is making a significant mistake... but really, enough of the nitpicking, especially in instances where that particular method has been working fine for that person.

[Crazydude]

I have many comments on this, as it is a topic I like discussing, so im going to mention most things i have a opinion on, so bear with me, sorry for the long post.

Heathers absolutes apply to any animal, and really is just what we consider necissary, it may be care, but is to the point if you dont do those things, it may be illegal.

I think with anything, Bone basics is what works best with newcomers, Talking new methods is not easy for them to grasp, and without good knowledge of the animal, it can be dangerous.

I think that with no absolutes, all decisions should come down to saftey first, this is a live animal that depends on you, if you mess with it, then you are putting it in danger and not doing your job. Keeping it healthy, happy, and in a good situation is your number one goal, dont step over this because of your needs. The benifit the animal gets is to be weighed in, Keeping a snake alone has much more benifits then dangers (no real dangers), this is why i support it. any problems that this method causes is to be weighed in, if it is stressful, then it may need to be rethought. then the things that benifit the keeper should be last if at all.

To me, in most cases not housing together is almost a absolute. It has no apparent benifits to the animal, just to the keeper. But still as it is not fact, just a opinion that can be backed, it should not be preached as absolute.

What if for a change instead of talking about the negative results of housing together, we talked about the benifits of housing alone?

Ive learned Never and Always to be dangerous words, because there is not a Never in most situations, nor an always.

Is this really what an experienced keeper is thinking about?

What is a experienced keeper, Another conversation/debate that has been had recently here.

Do not keep bearded dragons on sand. Very general statement. So many variables....what is the grain size of the sand, is it manufactured or natural, what are the shape of the grains, is it 100% sand or is it a sandy loam, is the bearded well hydrated, moisture content of the soil, etc.

There will always be debate on this, without rattling out details, there are certain sands dangerous, certain fine, adults may not have a problem, some may, babies probably will. But its details.

How many people say to keep beardies off sand, but have never read books describing bearded dragon burrows in the red sandy loam of Australia?

And how many people read books, but dont fully understand how beardies live? With beardies, Centrals (Vitticepts) they live on a mix of hard loamy clay, with a dried crusted layer on top, its a red soil, but not like playsand, Its more of a dry dirt, then a sand. THey also live in burnt down forests, in peoples yards, near roads. They do burrow to avoid heat, but dragons can NOT burrow in playsand, Ever tried to dig in dry sand? What happens? So does keeping on sand have any use? To me, it may provide enrichment for an adult dragon, but has no practical instinctual use in there lives in its simplest form (dry sand).

To me sticking to non-generic absolutes leads to a Lack of change, which IMHO is failure to your animals , Every day I like to find a new idea on how to adjust things to enrich my animals lives, with each, my factors come in again, saftey, benifit, dangers. Sure ball pythons or beardies, or any animal can be kept in a uniform way with ease, but when we think this is the best, we dont have the future ideas to compare it to, and if we stick with the current we never will.

If things stay the same for ever, and you worry too much, there is no new benifits. Consider each thing, and weight it, Dont preach facts, when they are not. Preach the information, and let a opinion be formed, dont preach a opinion, and use selective information to back it up. This and parroting are a problem in forums, and unless you grasp the idea of each concept you are preaching, dont preach.

To me the only absolute is there is no absolutes when it comes to specific care.

Ben

[LadyOhh]

Heathers absolutes apply to any animal, and really is just what we consider necissary, it may be care, but is to the point if you dont do those things, it may be illegal.

EXACTLY!!!!

Bare bones absolutes!!

[darkbloodwyvern]

This is almost exactly what I was going to say.

I've seen it happen many times where someone is asking a question in a thread; they receive 6 responses telling them not to do something and then 1 response from someone telling them its ok. In most cases being new to the site doesn't help the inquiring person know who is experienced and who is not.

This is where the person who is asking a question has some decisions to make, and I think the route they choose is one of two.

Route 1 = People who really care about their animals and are willing often to do whatever it takes to make sure they're properly set up. Buying new equipment, trying new ideas etc.

Route 2 = People who like their snake but view it more as an object and are not going to go above and beyond to make sure everything is perfect.

I think "absolutes" are needed for route 2 people. Otherwise there would be no getting through to them, they would just latch on to the one person who says what they want to hear and only the snake suffers after that.

After enough experience and time in the hobby you realize that there are many ways to take care of these animals and you start to experiment on your own.

I agree. The kinds of people who really love their animals will get into the hobby to the point that they will want to see and learn more all the time. The Route 2 people need to be discouraged from mistreating their animal. I don't have a huge problem with the Route 2 people, but they still need to care for the animals, whether they love them like I do or not. Usually it's all you can do to make them stick to the basics and actually freaking feed their pets!!! Absolutes are pretty necessary for those people.


And housing 2 snakes together is to me an absolute, especially now.
I have two rescues currently sharing a tub (glass is ok, but plastic is cheaper!) because I just finished making them a separate enclosure. I adopted them as a pair that had lived together for 17 years unexpectedly and finally finished the second one. They are going to be separated today, and this isn't ever something I'm going to recommend anyone to do or do again. It was dumb of me not to have a setup for each and next time I will be prepared. They were my first rescues and since they had lived together so long, I was unsure if being separated might even cause more stress. It will certainly make my life easier having them separated! I am hoping & assuming that it won't be a negative change. I won't rip anyone's face off for housing two together, but I certainly don't recommend it & will continue to recommend AGAINST it having experienced it briefly.

[darkbloodwyvern]

How about just saying what you mean?

If I say never, I actually mean not ever.

If I say always, I truly mean every time.

I agree. I tell people to never handle their snake for two days after feeding.
I would, in an emergency do so to a snake, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD do it- unless your house is burning down & you are getting all the pets out. That's an absolute to me that should be pretty important. I would rather have my snake regurg and be sick awhile and even die later from the regurg than let it become snake roast. The risk of them dying from a regurgitation is less than the risk of death/ permenant injury from fire. The rules of pet care obviously need to be a little flexible, in cases where there is a greater benefit (saving snake's life) and a lesser negative consequence (regurgitation, possibly sickness or death due to stress of an emergency).
I know occasionally rules are broken, and most of the time nothing bad comes of it. While nothing is completely absolute, it doesn't mean you can't try to stick to your guns. There are exceptions to just about every rule, but that doesn't mean the rules are worthless. and should be broken for whatever reason.

[Tosha_Mc]

Absolutely no hot rocks or lights inside the cage.

Absolutely no cedar, pine or sand

Absolutely research your pet before buying

Absolutely know how to use google

Absolutely know where your nearest herp vet is.

Thats about all my absolutes.


***(some of these are BP specific - but you get the point)