Dog Food For Rats?

[TheMissingLink]

i find it interesting that the oxbow site sells the regal rat food as adult PET rat food.it seems to me that 14% protein and 4% fat are a bit low for breeders.

how long have you been using it? i guess if it works well that's all that counts.

sometimes i think that the popular "accepted" %'s are just a rough guide line.my rats seem to do great on a variety of different feeds i've used over the years.have fun!

Because of the price i only use this twice a week. Rest of the week i go with the mix in the feeder section.

[littleindiangirl]

You made an authoritative statement about an important product. You were asked to back it up with a reference. You responded with childish sarcasm and condescention along the path towards downgrading your statement from that of fact, to an idea. Thankyou for the clarification.

While I don't understand why a search for the truth would generate the childishness I've witnessed here, I will suggest that simply redressing your statement at the onset would have been a more prudent (and polite) choice for you.

I still fail to see how the use of alfalfa in Mazuri is so important that any claims on what the purpose it carries has to be met with a citation. I think you over reacted to how 'authoritative' my comments are. I'll repost it for your viewing pleasure.

I know there is alfalfa in Mazuri, but it is not the main ingredient and is more of a filler. Just something we have to deal with. Rat's still cannot digest it, so yes, Mazuri shouldnt have it but they do.

I don't see how that is so authoritative, and I can't make you read my posts any differently. Sorry you feel so mislead.
But again, I still don't have to make any points for you, more so when I don't believe I stated it as a fact. I've already explained why. I'm sorry you don't like that, but its the truth. Good job for derailing this thread.

[littleindiangirl]

Yea, you sure bring out the best in me Desert. I may have been condescending and tart, from here on out I will remain ambiguous in my responses about alfalfa in rat feed. The main reason I don't have a citation for you is because my info is word of mouth from different rat forums I am a member of. It's said by many rat owners to avoid feeds with corn as one of the first ingredients and alfalfa. If it's lower down on the list, then its ok.

I dont like to cite other forums, since they too are not scientific and have no citations to where their info is from. It hardly qualifies except for their experience and having close interactions with their rats daily. I believe them and take their recommendations seriously solely because I know they are meticulous about what they feed rats. (They as in serious pet rat keepers)
I actually had to go and drag up the post I read this from, I hope this is the end to these cherades, it's out of my hands.
http://www.ratforum.com/Forums/viewtopic/p=22956.html

PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject: which food? Reply with quote
I am going to give you the ingredient lists for 2 different types of rat blocks. Tell me which one you think would be better to feed my rats.

Rat Block 1

Dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, ground corn, corn gluten meal, can molasses, soybean oil, ground wheat, dried whey, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, salt, choline chloride, magnesium oxide, niacin, vitamin A supplement, biotin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine monomitrate, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, calcium panthothenate, propionic acid (a preservative), ferrous sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate, chromium potassium sulfate.


Rat Block 2

Ground corn, dehulled soybean meal, wheat middlings, ground wheat, soybean oil, fish meal, cane molasses, porcine meat meal, ground oats, brewers dried yeast, wheat germ, dried beet pulp, dehydrated alfalfa meal, calcium carbonate, dried whey, salt, calcium propionate (a preservative), menadione dimethylpyrimidinol bisulfite (vitamin K), choline chloride, dried yucca shidigera extract, DL-methionine, vitamin A acetate, choleclciferol tocopheryl acetate (natural source vitamin E), thiamin mononitrate, folic acid, nicotinic acid, calcium pantothenate, cyanocobalmin (vitamin B12), riboflavin, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, cobalt carbonate...

PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 4:29 am Post subject: Re: which food? Reply with quote
the bottom one seems to have a lot of fillers for my taste. when i look for foods for my rats i look at where in the list the corn is, generally the further back the better as the further back you do the less of that substance is in the mix. but in this case not only is the second one with corn at the front but there is alfalfa which has absolutely no nutritional value whatsoever but will trick them into thinking they're fuller then what they are. alfalfa is hard to digest so takes longer to go through too and can cause indestion in rats as well.

[Ginevive]

What is the issue? Alfalfa is not digestible by rats, and is unneeded in their feed. To advise anyone against feeding it, is to advise them that it's just filler that you don't need to pay for! If alfalfa were good for rats, who wouldn't get a huge, cheap bag of alfalfa rabbit pellets for all of their rats? I wish that they Would eat it!

[Starbaby]

For pet rats, alot of owners reccomend Innova Senior, Nutro Lite, Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula or Wellness Lite dog food (in supplement to the other homemade feed mix).
I just know about rat care, period- nothing about breeding- but these loverly folks have mentioned that breeding rats require more protein so I'll take their word for it.

[Desert]

I dont like to cite other forums, since they too are not scientific and have no citations to where their info is from. It hardly qualifies except for their experience and having close interactions with their rats daily.

Understood, however unless relevant study methods are observed we really don't know what we have, do we. I know you are trying to help but such blanket anecdotal condemnations rarely work in all instances. Blanket condemnation of use of alfalfa is no more reasonable than using it where it is not indicated.

Nutrition studies have demonstrated that the soluble constituents of alfalfa were important for weight gain and nitrogen retention in rats when combined with a high protein ration, and also demonstrated that the soluble constituents were actually about two-thirds to three quarter digested by rats. The dietary alfalfa component actually increased weight gain in the study rats. The point here is that the much lower alfalfa component in the discussed brand appears to not be a 'filler' and the premise that it doesn't belong there appears to be flawed.

[littleindiangirl]

Nutrition studies have demonstrated that the soluble constituents of alfalfa were important for weight gain and nitrogen retention in rats when combined with a high protein ration, and also demonstrated that the soluble constituents were actually about two-thirds to three quarter digested by rats. The dietary alfalfa component actually increased weight gain in the study rats. The point here is that the much lower alfalfa component in the discussed brand appears to not be a 'filler' and the premise that it doesn't belong there appears to be flawed.

Now those words sound extremely familiar? Care to site your source?

My point, I have already said alfalfa is somewhat digestable, but very well. It is not preferred by rats in any of the studies, and in the case of purina, i would imagine the use of dehydrated alfalfa is just like you said. For the sake of keeping other rat breeders from buying the cheap rat feed because of the main ingredient being alfalfa, there is nothing wrong with saying that alfalfa is not good for rats.

If you wish to make your point, you should put the whole study without any cuts. I've read the article your referring to, and while you may have gotten the gist of it, there is more information to be had on the entire study that you left out.

[stangs13]

I notice that they have beet pulp in Mazuri. That is another filler...incase anyone wanted to know..lol.

[Ginevive]

See. this is why I prefer to mix my rat food. I use things like uncooked tricolor pasta; Kashi cereal, Cheerios, high-quality dog food w/ no more than 20% protein.. unsalted nuts.. the like. Take Becky's rat-food mixture; it is an awesome reference. I don't like merely feeding something with filler. This is why I don't even base my feed mix on lab blocks anymore, and I am even phasing out the pig feed that I used. Why? The rats don't eat it. It sits aside while they go for the cereals, and "goodies" provided. I am still researching things, but I plan on mixing my rat feed with an eye towards palatability and nutrition, not toward filler.
All of the things that I am using in my updated feed mix are things that you can get at a grocery store!

[Desert]

Now those words sound extremely familiar? Care to site your source?

My point, I have already said alfalfa is somewhat digestable, but very well. It is not preferred by rats in any of the studies, and in the case of purina, i would imagine the use of dehydrated alfalfa is just like you said. For the sake of keeping other rat breeders from buying the cheap rat feed because of the main ingredient being alfalfa, there is nothing wrong with saying that alfalfa is not good for rats.

If you wish to make your point, you should put the whole study without any cuts. I've read the article your referring to, and while you may have gotten the gist of it, there is more information to be had on the entire study that you left out.

I'm a physiologist, which means I'm perfectly capable of understanding what I'm reading, and knowing what I know.
Those are my words, not a copy/paste as you insinuate.
If I had copy/pasted from an 'article' I'd cite the article. This stuff is common knowledge in relevant academic circles. Now having said all this, I'm a little weary of having to wade through your constant personal posturing in this thread, so this will be my last post in it. Good day.