what do you think of hybrids

[CeraDigital]

No.. not in nature, they wouldn't. However by the simple fact that they CAN interbreed successfully, it tells me that they had a common ancestor.

Remember, 'species' is just a label people give to animals. A lot of animals in the same genus could be considered the same kind of animal.. and back in their history, they were the same animal. I don't see how it's unethical to crossbreed what are essentially localities of the same type of animal.. even if they belong to a different genus (it just means more diverse speciation has occured).

Isn't the hybridization of North American colubrids, recently, what caused the New World Rat snakes to be renamed Pantherophis? They were found to be more closesly related to other North American colubrids, than their old world relatives?

[Shelby]

I don't know.. but I wondered why they renamed the genus.

[MarkS]

Isn't the hybridization of North American colubrids, recently, what caused the New World Rat snakes to be renamed Pantherophis? They were found to be more closesly related to other North American colubrids, than their old world relatives?

Yes, it is. Of course they're more closely related. It only makes sense that the animals that are from the same continent as each other are much more closely related then animals from thousands of miles away across an ocean. But the various different species that are found on this continent are still considered different species from each other because they have evolved over time to fill different ecological niches and have different environmental needs and react in different ways (have differing personalities). None of which makes any difference at all because none of these animals will ever be re-released into the wild. They are captives and will always remain captives.

My objection to hybrids is, and has always been, that in the future it will be IMPOSSIBLE to find pure bred stocks of certain species unless you go back and collect from the wild. The more hybrids that are created the more inevitable it will be that genes from a different species will creep into my breeding projects mucking up the expected outcome. It's one of the reasons that I don't have as many corn snakes as I used to. Hybridization has been happening with them for such a long time, that there is no way that I could ever guarantee that any of my stock really is 100% pure corn snake. Now I see the same thing happening with the pythons.

And yes Andrew, comparing hybridization between two different species and reproducing random mutations that occur within a species are two completely different things, I don't see how you could possibly think they are similar in any way.

[CeraDigital]

And yes Andrew, comparing hybridization between two different species and reproducing random mutations that occur within a species are two completely different things, I don't see how you could possibly think they are similar in any way.

I'm comparing the two, to show you how 'short sighted' your showing yourself to be...

You complain about hybrids as if in the future, there will never be any purebred animals left. You could hold that doomsday idea all you'd like. Your choice. Tell me how are hybrids really detrimental to a species? If they weren't meant to breed together, then they wouldn't both in the wild, AND captivity. Nobody is forcing them to breed. As for random mutations...they're still genetic. Lets say Ball Pythons go extinct in the wild in the future, and they want to re-introduce the species....but all we have left are albino's, pastels, etc. Tell me how would they benefit the species, vs. a hybrid who more or less holds the best traits of the parent species?....

[MPenn]

Right....apples to oranges eh? Kind of like the Retic x Burm, or the different carpet crosses. Maybe even an angolan x Ball? Hmm....what about Eastern kings x Corns? Maybe even Bull snakes, or Pine snakes x corns? Stop and think on which hybrids have been produced so far.... Bullshxt arguement?...maybe the hybridists aren't the short sighted ones, if you cannot even stop and think, or comprehend this....

This is where you are wrong Andrew. The different carpet crosses here in the States are causing problems trying to find verifiable true species. There are a select few of us working with true forms (ie. pure coastal carpets, pure IJ's, etc.) to preserve the ability of future generations to find pure animals.
Have you looked at any of the 75% or 88% crosses?? Some could very easily be mistaken for a true breed.
Sure you can sleep sound and say that I will market and honestly represent the hybrids I produce. But, what about the person you sell the snake to?? How many times have you bought a snake and later sold it? How many people actually keep every animal they buy for the life of the animal??? Many snakes change hands many times and in those times I can tell you that I doubt the hybrid is always honestly represented.
I won't go with the argument about releasing them back into the wild. We all know this is not going to happen. But believe it or not, there are people out there that want a pure specimen of whatever species. The more high percentage crosses out there, the less the ability to find a pure form.
I am also a member on another forum where a guy in Europe who is a known carpet species hybridizer recently bought some snakes that were a bit unusual but he was told they were pure jungles (cheynei). Well he finally acquired the breeding adults of what he had bought and lo and behold, they were a hybrid. Looks to be a Savu x jungle carpet. The babies he had were 75%ers. You could tell by looking at some that they were hybrids for sure but there was one that could easily be mistaken for a pure jungle. Remember that percentages are only arbitrary. In a given clutch like this, they will not all be exactly 75% jungle. It is only statistical.

[CeraDigital]

This is where you are wrong Andrew. The different carpet crosses here in the States are causing problems trying to find verifiable true species. There are a select few of us working with true forms (ie. pure coastal carpets, pure IJ's, etc.) to preserve the ability of future generations to find pure animals.
Have you looked at any of the 75% or 88% crosses?? Some could very easily be mistaken for a true breed.
Sure you can sleep sound and say that I will market and honestly represent the hybrids I produce. But, what about the person you sell the snake to?? How many times have you bought a snake and later sold it? How many people actually keep every animal they buy for the life of the animal??? Many snakes change hands many times and in those times I can tell you that I doubt the hybrid is always honestly represented.
I won't go with the argument about releasing them back into the wild. We all know this is not going to happen. But believe it or not, there are people out there that want a pure specimen of whatever species. The more high percentage crosses out there, the less the ability to find a pure form.
I am also a member on another forum where a guy in Europe who is a known carpet species hybridizer recently bought some snakes that were a bit unusual but he was told they were pure jungles (cheynei). Well he finally acquired the breeding adults of what he had bought and lo and behold, they were a hybrid. Looks to be a Savu x jungle carpet. The babies he had were 75%ers. You could tell by looking at some that they were hybrids for sure but there was one that could easily be mistaken for a pure jungle. Remember that percentages are only arbitrary. In a given clutch like this, they will not all be exactly 75% jungle. It is only statistical.

I was speaking of wild integrades/hybrids.....

[MPenn]

I was speaking of wild integrades/hybrids.....

I disagree. You mentioned Angolan x ball, retic x burm, blood x ball, etc. These do not occur in the wild.

[CeraDigital]

I never mentioned Blood x ball, and the Retic x Burm was originally wild caught ....

[MPenn]

I never mentioned Blood x ball, and the Retic x Burm was originally wild caught ....

Wrong again. The retic x burm was not a wild caught but bred in captivity. The gentleman who put him out on the market (I won't say his name) told that story to put a bigger price tag on it and make it more unique. That is why the name Borneo Bateater came about.

[Rapture]

I think hybrids could be a great idea if they were all produced responsibly and also microchipped... but I know that doesn't happen. I realize the problem with high percentage hybrids and the difficulty in finding a pure species. I know that there are already problems identifying carpet pythons and coloubrids, and I think the boas will soon follow, if they are not there already. I think 50% hybrids are probably the "coolest looking" and safest hybrids to produce. While we're on the subject... I have a carpet that was sold to me as a Coastal, but it doesn't seem to be a pure Coastal anymore... a very pretty animal, but I may never know what percent of what species it really is. This could possibly deter me from breeding her in the future.