Is it ok if my bp eats a live mouse, live?

[MelissaFlipski]

Feeding stunned is considered more cruel to the prey, and dangerous overall because there's a chance the prey may wake-up from it's stupor while actually being swallowed and causing even more damage to the snake then a mere scratch or defensive bite. The prey may not be knocked unconscious and only be paralyzed, causing the prey to experience both suffocation, and the nasty lump you gave it from being smashed around; or that the snake may refuse the meal and you're left with a prey item that will awaken to terrible amounts of pain. If you care for a pain-free death for the prey, make a proper CO2 chamber to peacefully put the prey to sleep.

Righto, Gooseman.

Anyway, it's easier just to go to F/T.

[Holbeird]

Although I feed either live or fresh killed (depending on the snake) I personally don't see anything wrong with stunned prey depending on the situation. With a ball python, most will still strike and squeeze their prey until it's dead so I don't see any problem with stunning them first. With something more along the lines of a king snake or corn snake I have more of a problem as they have a tendency to just swallow it live.

I guess I just don't see how paralyzing the rat is any more cruel than having it run around, scared because it can see the snake coming after it, only to be bitten, and squeezed to death. You stated it was painful, I'm not doctor and I am by no means a expert on the subject, but if a stunning is done correctly is it not supposed to paralyze the mouse? If so, would the paralyzed mouse not be able to feel pain from the neck down (assuming that's where the paralyzation has taken place)

Feed Live, Stunned, Fresh Killed, Or Frozen Thawed. Whatever works best for you and doesn't put the animal in unnecessary pain. That's my

[ArcticBlue]

My reasoning for wanting to take it to a PM is so we don't hijack this persons thread. I would hate for this to turn into a debate, and the OP not get the help he needs. Would rather either debate in PM or start a new thread, or bump what I am sure is many threads on this subject.

I have stunned prey before, never had a problem with this injuring the snake. I've never actually heard of this being a problem, but like I said in my first post, I am not the authority in this subject, just giving out advice based on my experience. Honestly...I see very little difference in thumping or other "cruel" methods of feeding snakes and the way the animals are treated and then slaughtered for meat for human consumption. It is a personal opinion.

Either way I stand by my post, and I have no problem discussing this here as long as the OP doesn't mind and is getting all the help they want.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I generally offer stunned prey if a snake refuses pre-killed, and I'm trying to convert it over to f/t eventually. It tends to 'bridge the gap'. I would think the chance of a prey animal waking up halfway down the throat of a snake is low, as they would already be fairly well suffocated by having their head down the snake's throat. Plus, it's hard to imagine a python picking up live prey, even if it's not moving, without constricting it. The rodent is still breathing, and that tends to trigger them to kill it.
I'm sure there is the occasional 'slow student', as snakes are all individuals, but that's where supervision comes in.
Occasionally an individual snake will swallow fully conscious live prey (adult, not pinky), too, which is even more dangerous.

But it's hard to imagine a ball python too small to eat a hopper mouse, that would be an abnormally tiny hatchling. I think new people may underestimate just how incredibly far their jaws and throat can stretch.

Back to the original question, eating live pink mice won't do the python any harm, though it's quite unpleasant for the mice.

[SatanicIntention]

Either feed live or feed f/t.. We are not here to bash the feeders' heads in so they don't harm the snake. Why do you think nature let them evolve with scales for skin? They are able to defend themselves and very well. Just choosing the correct prey size(no live large, adult rats for Balls.. not needed) is all that is needed to ensure your snake won't have problems. Pre-scenting the room, so the snakes are aware of what is going to happen, is also a good idea.


Snakes don't kill their prey by suffocation. Anyone ever fainted? It's about like that, where the blood stops flowing to your brain, oxygen can't get where it needs to be, and you pass out. When a snake constricts, the blood stops flowing to the brain, they faint and since they can't breathe, they then go unconscious and die. It's not like the are underwater and can't breathe(well.. sometimes there's a waterbowl mishap).

Being stunned is like being in a bad car accident. What if you aren't paralyzed? What if the crash actually makes you hypersensitive and everything hurts 10x worse than it would have? What if your ribs pierce your lungs and they can no longer inflate, so you suffocate? That really doesn't sound like a very fun death to me. I'd rather faint and go unconscious anyday.

I have hatchlings that are around 2months old(hatched the middle of August). They weigh about 110-120g and are eating small/medium adult mice. Believe me, they are capable. Their first meal, they got small hoppers, but their second meal, they got large hoppers and upgraded from there. These babies were around 55-65g at hatching.

If you can't find baby rats on a regular basis, get small adult mice. Those are usually very plentiful and your snake should do just fine with them. Pinks/fuzzies should be reserved for cornsnakes and other teensy colubrids. Ball Pythons may have tiny necks but they stretch and they are able to take larger prey pretty soon out of the egg.

[WingedWolfPsion]

While a large python with a very small prey item may stop blood flow in its prey, and the large pythons are certainly known for this, most baby ball pythons are suffocating their mice. This is clear from simply watching the process. As the mouse exhales, the python tightens its coils further, preventing the mouse from inhaling again, until it expires. You can watch the panic response take hold just before the mouse passes out.

Of course, pre-killing or feeding f/t is the most humane method, but for a stubborn feeder, stunned is safer than live for the snake. Provided you've done it properly, the prey animal will not wake up.

Apart from providing a bridge between live and pre-killed, though, I don't see much purpose for it.

[Holbeird]

I disagree with you somewhat. I believe snakes do kill by suffocation. The mice/rats are not conscious through the entire process due to the fainting that you spoke of, but it is due to the lack of blood to the brain/oxygen to the body that kills them. That's suffocation. Just because the rat/mouse isn't conscious through the entire thing doesn't mean they don't suffocate still.

When stunning I'll agree that it could paralyze, it could as you said, make them more hypersensitive. All of this is speculation. In terms of the ribs piercing the lungs so they can no longer inflate, that would be due to the snakes biting/squeezing, not to the stunning itself as the stunning itself is commonly done by thumping the mouse in the head. I agree that it does not sound like a pleasant way to die, but although fainting and going unconscious and slipping into death may not be so bad, having razor sharp teeth plunging into you, then being squeezed while you struggle and try and breath before you faint and go unconscious isn't very pleasant sounding either.

Overall I agree with most of your post, most people underestimate just how much hatchlings can take. I was on the receiving end of this myself. My new cinny I got was very small and he would not take frozen thawed or fresh killed. I offered him a live small fuzzy and left it in overnight. He ended up taking it and I was worried that because he didn't go after it right away there was a problem. I offered him another fuzzy the next week, due to fear that his feeding response wasn't up to snuff again he didn't show much intrest, but took the fuzzy overnight. The next week I didn't have any rat pups (again) but I went up to the store and they were outta fuzzies. The only thing they had was a hopper that was almost a small mouse! I was terrified but dropped it in, my snake had it within 10 seconds. He's had 2 more feedings since and is taking small mice with no problem.

I believe the OP's snake would be fine with a small mouse or large hopper. Snakes have evolved over years to do their job and they do it quite well. Although there are occasional issues, most can be resolved with proper observation of feeding.

Snakes don't kill their prey by suffocation. Anyone ever fainted? It's about like that, where the blood stops flowing to your brain, oxygen can't get where it needs to be, and you pass out. When a snake constricts, the blood stops flowing to the brain, they faint and since they can't breathe, they then go unconscious and die. It's not like the are underwater and can't breathe(well.. sometimes there's a waterbowl mishap).

Being stunned is like being in a bad car accident. What if you aren't paralyzed? What if the crash actually makes you hypersensitive and everything hurts 10x worse than it would have? What if your ribs pierce your lungs and they can no longer inflate, so you suffocate? That really doesn't sound like a very fun death to me. I'd rather faint and go unconscious anyday.

I have hatchlings that are around 2months old(hatched the middle of August). They weigh about 110-120g and are eating small/medium adult mice. Believe me, they are capable. Their first meal, they got small hoppers, but their second meal, they got large hoppers and upgraded from there. These babies were around 55-65g at hatching.

[SatanicIntention]

Good post.


I still would have to argue that some people go to extreme measures to "thump" their feeder animals. Some may just flick it in the head, but some may just grab it by the tail and smash it on a table. What happens if it's not done correctly? I prefer to respect the prey animals that keep my snakes alive by keeping them calm, fed, watered and unsuspecting until the second they are dropped into the tub. Usually their feet don't even touch the floor. I fed off 65 live adult mice last night and not one of my snakes got bit or had a bad grab. I did have to tell some of the adult females not to strike 2ft out of their tub at my head.

Have you ever closely watched a prey animal get constricted? I watch every so often because I find it interesting. Yes, the mouse panics for about 2-3 seconds, but after the blood stops rushing to it's head(you can tell because their tongue is purple), their brain takes over and all is happening is reflective movements(the twitching and so forth). So honestly, it is just speculation that it's either suffocation or hypoxia that occurs when the animal is constricted.

I still think I would choose constriction over a car accident any day

[rabernet]

I've never ever stunned prey before feeding it. I've also never ever had an injury in over 2000 live prey being fed off.

For further discussion on method of death caused by constriction:

constriction


Snakes

Constriction is a method used by various snake species to kill their prey. Constrictors do not have venom in their fangs to kill prey; instead, they simply squeeze them to death. The snake initially strikes at its prey and holds on, pulling the prey into its coils or, in the case of very large prey, pulling itself onto the prey. The snake will then wrap one or two coils around the prey, typically the prey's chest. Contrary to myth, the snake does not crush the prey, nor does the constriction simply suffocate it. Instead, the pressures exerted on the prey's body result in cardiac arrest. A gopher snake constricting a mouse for example, applies pressures of 6.1-30.9 kPa which range from one half to more than two times the mouse's systolic blood pressure, and are likely more than 10 times larger than its venous pressure. Applying constriction, a snake can kill its prey in seconds, thus avoiding the dangers of prolonged close contact with a possibly dangerous creature, that would be the result of mere suffocation.



Other meanings

Constriction, the opposite of dilation or dilatation, also refers to vasoconstriction, the narrowing of blood vessels caused by vascular smooth muscle contractions and some venoms.

[littleindiangirl]

I guess I just don't see how paralyzing the rat is any more cruel than having it run around, scared because it can see the snake coming after it, only to be bitten, and squeezed to death.

This reminds me of a response I got from a rat fanatic. She claimed that these rats actually go crazy while they watch the hunter come after them, causing extreme stress, and sometimes a horrible death. I can pull the email if I have to.

How about this angle, all the live rats I have feed have never acted like the snake is dangerous or seem to care that there is even another animal in the tub. Also, how would you know a rat even views the snake as a predator? Unless the rat has had a scrap with a snake in the past, how would it even know death is coming until the moment the snake grabs it? Yes yes, the snake may miss, but I don't believe the rat starts to go crazy like this woman claimed.
That's, again, putting human emotions and logic into an animal with a far simpler brain. I think they are adorable and talented creatures for memorization, but they aren't humans in little fur coats.

You stated it was painful, I'm not doctor and I am by no means a expert on the subject, but if a stunning is done correctly is it not supposed to paralyze the mouse? If so, would the paralyzed mouse not be able to feel pain from the neck down (assuming that's where the paralyzation has taken place)

I don't see most people that stun going for the neck honestly. I think the general "stunning" is placing in a bag and wacking it as hard as you can against a wall or floor. No real science to try and paralyze, but to stun it so the rat is alive, but can't move.
If science says that snakes actually stop the heart from pumping, or by suffocation, I think it's by far more humane than stunning. I know that I would probably pass out from the constriction, so who knows? Maybe most times the rats actually do get knocked out before they pass.