Rat mites

[jglass38]

So last night I found that one of my rats (a male that hasn't been too healthy ) had rat mites all over him. Since its a closed colony the only place it could have come from is the bedding I bought last. I sprayed him with Reptile Relief which has been tested and is safe for rodents. Today I have to change all the bedding as I saw a few here and there on a couple other rats. I wrote to Bob Pound at Pro Products (the makers of Provent A Mite) to ask whether PAM could be used for rat mites. His response indicates that even though PAM is not approved for use with rodents and recommending it would be against the law, that it has been tested and does work without complications for the rodent or the animal that ends up consuming it. Here is his response:


We have done clinical studies with our product on rodents. We found that it didn’t cause any acute or chronic health problems for the rodents or anything that ate them (reptiles, raptors and mammals were used) when applied per the same method as it labeled for use with reptiles. Since rodent bedding is changed frequently, in order to make the application more cost effective, we treated cotton balls per the label method and rate, then inserted about 20 cotton balls per habitat. The rodents would use the cotton to make a nest. Every time they went in and out of the nest, they would be treated. This resulted in a 100% effective control of all ectoparasites on the rodents. When the cages were cleaned, the nest was removed, put aside and replaced in the clean cage. We found the nest to remain effective for at least 30 days.



We did try to use several other formulas using a more common isomer of permethrin, as they are much cheaper than the one we use. We found a high rate of chronic health problems in both reptiles and raptors that were fed the contaminated rodents. Breaking the formula down into its components, we found that these other molecules of the active as well as two other ingredients found in almost every other formula were the cause. Because our formula is considerably more expensive to manufacture than other formulas & methods presently EPA approved for treating rodents, along with the very high cost to submit our product to be approved for this use, we decided it was economically unfeasible to do so. For this reason, we can’t recommend our product for this use as it is not labeled as such.

[muddoc]

Jamie,
We ran into this problem about 2 years ago. We brought one of our rats to the vet, and they recommended a "Fronline" type treatment. By this I mean the liquid drops you put on a dog for flee control. I can't remember the brand name, but I believe it may have been Frontline. At any rate, it worked like a charm. We did however, keep from feeding any of the animals that were treated to any snakes for a 30 day period of time.

I will not question PAM, but I do know that reptilian mites and mammalian mites are host specific, and I think the treatment for each would be different. I would think that the PAM would not be very effective. However, if you try it, I would love to hear about your results. On that note, I would think that if you treated any animal with PAM, you would want to refrain from feeding that animal and any other animal that has contact with that animal to your snakes, as I don't think that your snake ingesting PAm would be good. Just a reminder in case you didn't think of it.

Good Luck,

[jglass38]

Jamie,
We ran into this problem about 2 years ago. We brought one of our rats to the vet, and they recommended a "Fronline" type treatment. By this I mean the liquid drops you put on a dog for flee control. I can't remember the brand name, but I believe it may have been Frontline. At any rate, it worked like a charm. We did however, keep from feeding any of the animals that were treated to any snakes for a 30 day period of time.

I will not question PAM, but I do know that reptilian mites and mammalian mites are host specific, and I think the treatment for each would be different. I would think that the PAM would not be very effective. However, if you try it, I would love to hear about your results. On that note, I would think that if you treated any animal with PAM, you would want to refrain from feeding that animal and any other animal that has contact with that animal to your snakes, as I don't think that your snake ingesting PAm would be good. Just a reminder in case you didn't think of it.

Good Luck,

Tim,

As far as the difference between reptile mites and mammalian mites, I have to defer to Bob on that one. There isn't a person out there with more knowledge of ectoparasites. He did state that his research showed no risk of feeding prey items that had their enclosures treated with PAM. I will let you know how it goes.

Jamie

[slartibartfast]

There are a couple of species of rat mites; you can get one on a piece of clear scotch tape and check under a microscope to see what you have. The most common ones are actually lice. We got some mouse lice in our hospital rats, presumably from bedding as we don't keep any other rodents there.

Frontline did the trick...not the concentrated drops, but the spray-on form, which is a much lower concentration. I put on rubber gloves, sprayed it on my hands, and then rubbed each rat. We had a litter at that time who still had their eyes shut, and I rubbed a small spot on each of them as well. There were no apparent side effects, and the lice were gone by the next morning. I also changed the bedding and misted the new bedding with Frontline spray as well, just to cover all the bases.

[muddoc]

Tim,

As far as the difference between reptile mites and mammalian mites, I have to defer to Bob on that one. There isn't a person out there with more knowledge of ectoparasites. He did state that his research showed no risk of feeding prey items that had their enclosures treated with PAM. I will let you know how it goes.

Jamie

Thanks for the clarification Jamie, as I have never talked to Bob before. Sounds good not having any risk of feeding prey items to your snake after use.

[SatanicIntention]

I love me some Frontline, both the spray and the drops. I used the spray on each of my friend's rats, and we haven't seen itching, scabbies, nothing for 2 months. I would get some of that since the rat who is mostly affected is immunocompromised right now. Something harsher than the Frontline may just do him in if he gets too much into his system.

[jglass38]

Thanks for the clarification Jamie, as I have never talked to Bob before. Sounds good not having any risk of feeding prey items to your snake after use.

In the end its the word of one guy. However, when that guy is Bob Pound it carries some weight. I'm not quite sure what the difference is between Frontline and PAM. I would venture a guess that they are both Permethrin based products. For me I would feel more comfortable with an approach that has been tested (even though its not approved) and that doesn't include applying anything topical to the animal than with a try and hope method like rubbing Frontline on the rats.

[lord jackel]

A word of caution there are 2 treatments being discussed in this thred - and they are not the same and could have disasterous results.


1. is PAM (pyrethin based) - as stated by Jamie and Bob this has been tested on rodents (who were fed to snakes) and found to be safe. It is water soluble and breaks down fairly quickly. On a personal note I have a pyrethin sprayer in my rat room that sprays a metered does of pyrethin every 15 mins. I have had this setup for several years and have been feeding these same rodents (that have been exposed to it) without incident (in both the rats nor my snakes and lizards). My rat room doubles as my garage and for the past several years I have never seen a live critter in it...I do have to sweep up dead spiders, ants, and such all the time but nothing alive. They have these same setups in restaurants it has been tested on humans, reptiles, rodents and other mammals and found to be safe (pyrethin that is not the "extras" that may have been added).

2. is Frontline (Fipronil based) - is another good parasitic but is NOT meant for ingestion. It has long term effects and does not break down in the presense of water. It is toxic to both humans and animals in larger doses (only about 15% is actually absorbed by your dog when you use it on them and frontline suggests you wear gloves when treating your dog). This treatment will also get rid of mites and lice but I agree with Tim that if you are going to use this treatment that you abstain from feeding those treated rodents for at least 30 days from treatment.

Just wanted to make sure that others that read this thread don't try and combine the treatments or mis-understand the treatment options.

[muddoc]

Very well put Sean.

[Flagg]

From what I have read on pet rat sites, the best treatment is "Revolution" for cats or kittens. Not sure how it compares to frontline, but it's supposed to be very safe for the rats and it stays in their system for 30 days so it breaks the 3 week life cycle of mites.

My adult rats are pets so I don't mind using such treatments on them. I have 2 males that are seriously mite infested. I didn't realize it was mites and it didn't seem so bad before, but it's pretty serious now. I've ordered Revolution and am just now waiting for it to get here in the mail from Australia. Requires a prescription here but apparently they can ship it from Australia without a prescription. 1 drop between the ears/back of neck and that should take care of it.

If you do have mites you should treat all the rats as they probably all have them, showing symptoms or not. If you only treat the ones showing symptoms the mites will just hang out on the others and re-infect the treated ones after the treatment wears off.

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