Pine Debate!!!

[lillyorchid]

I use screened, kiln dried pine.. and have had no problems with it. There's no dust, and it smells really nice and is quite absorbent.

I've thought of using woody pet (or any of the other compressed wood shaving beddings) but my feed store doesn't carry any of the brands I don't think.. the stuff absorbs like crazy though.

I too use Kiln Dried Pine bedding for all of my rodents and have been using it for years now. I love it and have to agree with the no dust, smells nice and its absorbent. Here and there I'll throw in some wood pellets which work great with absorbency. I get both the pine and wood pellets at a local Tractor Supply store.

[Ginevive]

Does anyone who uses pine, have any knowledge of the Phenols that are in it? Here is a link to one of the sites that explains this..
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm
This is just me.. I would Never use a bedding based on "cheapness" or "low cost." Any of my animals, from the horses to the rats to my horned frog, get the best caging and bedding/substrate available. Whether it's free (snake newspaper bedding) or grossly expensive (aspen shavings for the rats) cost is no issue. I would be very disappointed in anyone who skimped on rat bedding because "it's cheaper." Would you use a cheap $20 thermostat that fluctuated ten degrees in your incubator or snake rack because it was less expensive?
I was a doubter too.. my friend berated me for using pine, and I dismissed her.. I recently had two older females die and while I did not get an autopsy, they really had no reason to die and were not over a year or so old.. this paragraph makes me wonder... from the site I linked to in this post.

"As far as possible connections with rats and mice go, it is important to realize that without blood work, a liver biopsy, or an autopsy, it is difficult to diagnose liver disease. Consequently, while liver disease may not be documented as a common cause of rat and mouse deaths, many cases of rats and mice dying of “old age” may in fact have been related to liver failure. When an older rat or mouse stops eating, becomes lethargic, and just “fades away,” many causes are possible, but liver disease is certainly among them. It is true that rats and rabbits are different species, but in general, what is hepatotoxic (causative of liver damage) in one mammalian species is hepatotoxic in another. This is why rats and rabbits are used so often in pharmacological studies involving adverse drug reactions in human beings."

In closing, it is known that phenols are toxic. So why use a bedding with them in it?

[Ginevive]

Pine is great for rodents, but not snakes.
I use pine for all my rodents, get a huge back from wal mart for 4.88

I am just wondering why it would be OK for rodents, but not for snakes.. please enlighten me

[lord jackel]

Does anyone who uses pine, have any knowledge of the Phenols that are in it? Here is a link to one of the sites that explains this..
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm
This is just me.. I would Never use a bedding based on "cheapness" or "low cost." Any of my animals, from the horses to the rats to my horned frog, get the best caging and bedding/substrate available. Whether it's free (snake newspaper bedding) or grossly expensive (aspen shavings for the rats) cost is no issue. I would be very disappointed in anyone who skimped on rat bedding because "it's cheaper." Would you use a cheap $20 thermostat that fluctuated ten degrees in your incubator or snake rack because it was less expensive?
I was a doubter too.. my friend berated me for using pine, and I dismissed her.. I recently had two older females die and while I did not get an autopsy, they really had no reason to die and were not over a year or so old.. this paragraph makes me wonder... from the site I linked to in this post.

"As far as possible connections with rats and mice go, it is important to realize that without blood work, a liver biopsy, or an autopsy, it is difficult to diagnose liver disease. Consequently, while liver disease may not be documented as a common cause of rat and mouse deaths, many cases of rats and mice dying of “old age” may in fact have been related to liver failure. When an older rat or mouse stops eating, becomes lethargic, and just “fades away,” many causes are possible, but liver disease is certainly among them. It is true that rats and rabbits are different species, but in general, what is hepatotoxic (causative of liver damage) in one mammalian species is hepatotoxic in another. This is why rats and rabbits are used so often in pharmacological studies involving adverse drug reactions in human beings."

In closing, it is known that phenols are toxic. So why use a bedding with them in it?

The reason is that the effects are not conclusive. Here is another view that uses Science to say that there is no adverse affects in using Pine. Many people have used Pine successfully for years without issue. Rats are prone to many diseases (due to years of imbreeding, domestication and such), so far early death hasn't been associated to pine use.

I also don't think "cheapness" has anything to do with it...it is what works best for the situation. Since when does it being expensive make it all the sudden so much better? Why is it OK to use a Ranco Thermostat when Helix is more expensive? You could take this even further if using "only the best is good enough" for pets then I assume everyone is using bottled water for all the animals, as tap water has Choloramine, fluoride and other junk in it?

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/V...1155/Pine.html

Just another point of view

[Ginevive]

It is not the price that makes the bedding ideal; remember, I did mention that i use "free" newspaper for my snakes, and I find that to be the best substrate because I can fully clean out after any bowel movements, etc.
No hard feelings. As long as people are not using aromatic cedar; that would be nasty because 1) it has such a strong odor as it is and 2) it reeks when urine hits it.
No one has helped me to understand why it is not OK to use pine for snakes, but is OK for rodents.. but it was not you that stated that.
Until conclusive evidence is found that proves that phenols are safe chemicals, I am sticking to the aspen. I would rather not expose my rats to that.

[Ginevive]

I don't use bottled water, but our well is spring-fed, and it is better than any water that you can find at the store. but this was a lifestyle choice for us in addition to living in the country; though we do run it through a salt filter to help soften it; adds to our quality of life because chronic hard-water dandruff is no picnic I don't drink municipal tap water.
But I digress. I feel like I am nitpicking here and am sorry if I am; I am just defending my non-pine-iness. Maybe someone with some veterinary experience regarding phenols could chime in?

[Rakshasi]

Gin,
I, too, was going to defend my non-pine-iness (sorry, but your word sounded neat so i'm going to use it , but I don't think anything we say is going to be convincing. I just know that I'm sticking to aspen, like you, until there is good, solid proof that pine is totally safe for rodents, snakes, etc. I personally do not believe it is. I've had many, many rats over the years and while not ALL had bad reactions to the pine, some DID. Some got so much porphyrin around their eyes/noses they looked liked some strange, sickly sewer monster. Some sneezed constantly. I was always in and out of the vets, until he finally told me, "No more thinking about changing their bedding. Just do it. " Any excuse I tried would not change his mind. He gave me the firm "do it," and would not be swayed. I asked about diet and everything, but he'd give me no further tips (just meds to help with the sneezing, and full instructions on what i needed to do) until I tried changing.

So, no matter what people tell me about how "safe" they think pine is, until they can prove it truly is, I won't touch the stuff, anymore. I can't prove how terrible it is, but in my experience, as already stated, some of my first few rats did not do well on it, at all.

We are all able to make our own decisions...I'm one that doesn't mind what other people do. I'm open to suggestions, and I'm open to voicing my own suggestions, opinions, beliefs, etc but honestly, I'm set in my ways. I know what works for me and my animal companions, and I know what keeps both them and I healthy. It'd take alot of convincing and hard scientific fact to get me to even consider changing my mind about alot of the decisions I've made.

[Sevo]

Jake,

Wal mart has a big bag of kiln dried and almost dust free pine shavings. They are 5.50 a bag and I can do 13 bins with one bag. I have used pine for 2 years and all has been great with my rats.

It is to hard to link sickness in "our" rats with anything. We have in line bred and bred some more, who knows what sort of "kill" gene you are breeding back to your rats.

Was it the pine or was it that inherited gene for a fatty liver that you are breeding back into your colony from that male you thought was going to be a great breeder one day.

jury is still out on pine for me... just my .. not taking aim at anyone, just giving you another perspective.

[lord jackel]

Until conclusive evidence is found that proves that phenols are safe chemicals, I am sticking to the aspen. I would rather not expose my rats to that.

Don't get me wrong...I am not arguing your choice...just showing another side and the reason some people use Pine.

Your reason above for not wanting to use Pine is fine...but to ask it right back to you...where is the conclusive evidence that proves phenols are bad chemicals?

This is one of those topics with no right/wrong answer...at least not one that Science will be able to back up yet.

[Rakshasi]

This is one of those topics with no right/wrong answer.

Agreed!!

At least until we have some scientific evidence to back up either of the claims.