Pine Debate!!!

[Ginevive]

The Center for Disease Control (CDC) lists it as a known carcinogen in laboratory mice. These statements from their website scare me:

"Phenol has caused minor birth defects and low birth weight in animals generally at exposure levels that also were toxic to the pregnant mothers."

"Short-term exposure to phenol in the air can cause respiratory irritation, headaches, and burning eyes."

And the most alarming:
"In animals, breathing air with high levels of phenol resulted in irritation of the lungs. Repeated exposures induced muscle tremors and loss of coordination."

All in all, since this is from a government website (the CDC) I will not knowingly being phenols into contact with my animals. There are no known mouse carcinogens in aspen that I am aware of.

Reference: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts115.html#bookmark06

I also got this statement off of www.rabbit.org.. neither this site, nor the CDC site, are hack-job know-it-alls that are spreading hearsay.

"The phenols in the softwood (pine and cedar) shavings causes changes in the liver's enzymes. Your rabbit's liver tries to remove the phenols by producing more of certain enzymes that destroy these chemicals; this is a natural part of you and your rabbit's defense against enviromental toxins. Our bodies always produces a low constant level of these protective agents; the problem occurs when constant exposure to pine phenols causes the rabbits to produce substantially larger quantities."

I do not even think that stores should sell pine shavings, but as always, money is king. The ill-educated consumer knows not what they are doing, and the world turns.
I just want to know about the reasoning behild this disparity: people will use pine for their rodents, but then buy aspen, cypress, or the like for their reptiles..?

[MarkS]

I think the CDC is in the business of scaring the crap out of people. Look up they're articles on salmonella and you'll wonder why we're all not dead yet.

I'd rather go by the experience of people who actually use the stuff. I've talked to Kathy Love before and she told me that she uses pine on all of her corn snakes and has for years without any problems. This is a person who has probably been breeding corns for over 30 years. I've used pine for years on my rodents without any problems, the only reason I switched was because I tried the aspen and liked it better, but if I ever find they've sold out of the aspen I'd have no problems using pine again. There are some beddings I won't use like ground corn cob because I've heard some bad things about it. But I see no problem with using either pine OR aspen.

Mark

[Flagg]

I've used Woody Pet with my rats and it was fine as long as you clean at least once a week. At one point I couldn't clean until 2 weeks and it had turned into a dusty mess. Shortly after that I had the first myco flare up in my adult males so I don't use it for the rats any more. It's not a shaving though, it's pelleted pine.

I used it up on the mice and ASF rats and it worked fine there.

[Evan Jamison]

"Phenol has caused minor birth defects and low birth weight in animals generally at exposure levels that also were toxic to the pregnant mothers."

I don't doubt that the findings by the CDC are true in all respects, but I would like to know what exposure levels are they exposing these mice to. I can guarantee you that they aren't just putting the mice on any ol' pine bedding and getting these results. They are likely exposing them to EXTREMELY high levels of lab created phenols, higher than you will find anywhere in nature. They are more than justified in saying that phenols are toxic and can be fatal, but it means nothing to me as far as what bedding I should use. Experience, both first-hand and from countless others that I trust, means much more to me than results from a process that will never be repeated in my rodent shed.

-Evan

[Ginevive]

Not to sound wishy-washy, but I am literally on the fence here. So you really think that the pine is OK? Quite honestly, it would save me a lot of money, not to mention a bunch of travel hassles (to get aspen) if i just switched back to pine. So the general consensus is that it is OK? If so, I will gladly spend $4 on a pine bale, rather than $11 on half that much of aspen.. in the long run, that would definately have to be a money-saver.. so I feel better about pine now, reading everyone's comments. I think that maybe the anti-pine battle is mainly being fought by "fuzzy keepers" who are aghast that we feed our snakes rats/mice, maybe?

[MarkS]

I think that maybe the anti-pine battle is mainly being fought by "fuzzy keepers" who are aghast that we feed our snakes rats/mice, maybe?

You might be on to something there. It wouldn't surprise me a whole lot if there was some of truth to this. I'm surprised that you spend that much on aspen, where I buy my wood products they have both pine and aspen bedding and the aspen is actually about 50 cents a bale cheaper. Sold as horse bedding...

Has anyone ever tried the wood pellets that they use for wood pellet stoves? I would thing a hard pressed pellet like that would be really dust free and probably a lot more absorbent. Just a thought.

Mark