Spiders????

[Freakie_frog]

No, NEVER ... Everything I have ever sold or will ever sell was and is produced by me ... I don't resell other peoples animals and I've never set up at a show ... Nothing wrong with the practice, it's just not for me.

I started by selling my animals for what I feel they are worth, by respecting the professional breeders prices, by never undercutting my own customers, by being 100% honest all the time, and by trying to provide every one of my customers with the same level of service and quality that I would expect myself ... I have been blessed to have had a lot of success over the years and the future at this point seems limitless for my business!

-adam

Adam this is one of the reasons I respect you.

[Entropy]

No Steven, I wasn't talking about that, just your multiple posts one after the other the last page.

The BOI can't guarantee anything. Sure, if someone has had numerous negative experiences with a person it's good to steer clear but even with all positive experiences you still have to decide to take the risk.
Then there are the people that haven't been posted on the BOI, what do you do with them? Avoid them because the lynch mob hasn't had it's turn yet?
No, the BOI is a tool to 'consider' but it does not make my decisions for me.

I really enjoy talking to breeders at shows.

[djslurp1200]

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki]Over the years, lots of people on the BOI that had great reps at one point turned into bad guys for selling hets that didn't prove out once they were raised to breeding size.

Not doubting that...

[QUOTE=Adam_Wysocki]but some dude with a couple of snakes and a table at a show could easily sell a bunch of normals as "hets" and then a year or two or three later disappear from the scene ... the dude at the show has nothing "invested" in the market and wouldn't get hurt at all from a tarnished reputation ...

I'm sure anyone would be a little weary with a bunch of normals ( so called hets) and no visual morphs in place that those hets would create... Again, I'm not saying that it doesn't or it couldn't happen.

What I'm saying is not all of those dudes with a couple of snakes and a table at a show ARE scammers...Most of those dudes with only a couple of snakes and a table are honost hard working people just like you! that are passionate about snakes and look forward to everyday working with them...Some of those guys with a couple of snakes and a table are members of this forum helping others learn and understand more about their beautiful animal(s)...But of course they have to start somewhere. Like I said earlier "we all start somewhere"

In every industry or type of business there are con artists and scammers... I'm not saying that they don't exist, what I'm saying is don't single out a breeder just because he doesn't have some huge rediculous 10 table setup.

[djslurp1200]

[QUOTE=Entropy]No Steven, I wasn't talking about that, just your multiple posts one after the other the last page.

My bad, Got a little excited thats all lol


[QUOTE=Entropy]The BOI can't guarantee anything.

Well it can give you an idea...


Giving Edit a try...


I notice we keep coming back to TSE (Top Shelf Exotics ) as the poster boys for what happens when you don't buy BIG named breeder! He is a BAD flipper that screwed over a lot of people!

But, I am somewhat positive there are some sales and transactions that go on every day between these small unknown sellers that go smooth as silk with happy sellers and buyers on both sides. What happens IMO is, the few negative experiences like TSE are magnified 200X's as what can happen if you save some $$$!

Question? What about ALL the positive sales and transactions that take place daily that out number the negative ones 10,000 to 1?

People are most likely to post about a negative experience over a positive any day of the week. Just look at the BOI and compare a positive thread and a negative thread! Positive thread 2-3 pages, negative thread 200-1000 pages!

Most sales be it a large breeder or small breeder or flipper go without a hitch and everyone is happy! 99% of these go untold as they had no problems or people don't post because they get told not to post or that they are bragging! If everyone came on here and posted that they got a fantastic Spider for $600 or a Perfect Pied for $2000, the neg reps fly and people say don't post threads like these!

But, when someone like TSE comes along....that's used as a good side of flippers or small breeders and/or hobbyist? It doesn't make sense IMO.

[Adam_Wysocki]

In every industry or type of business there are con artists and scammers... I'm not saying that they don't exist, what I'm saying is don't single out a breeder just because he doesn't have some huge rediculous 10 table setup.

I'm not singling out ANYONE ... I'm shaing my years and years of experience going to shows and buying ball pythons ... It's easy to get scammed buying off of someone at a show ... it's easy to get exactly what you're paying for buying from a professional breeder who's reputation is EVERYTHING.

In my opinion, it has nothing to do with 10 table setups and everything to do with supporting people that are investing in the community/hobby you are choosing to be a member of.

I never said not to buy from small breeders ... I do it all the time ... everyone does have to start somewhere and the small breeders that I choose to support and help are generally my customers ... I always enjoy buying animals from people that have put their trust in me when they were getting started ... my point is that with the PRO's, there is ZERO question about what you are getting and how you will be treated IF a problem arises.

I hope that it something you can understand.

-adam

[djslurp1200]

Another thing is, MKR was considered a PRO until they cut prices and fell from grace! There is no such thing as ZERO risks! I'm sure there are people that have bought from Clark, NERD and others that weren't 100% satisfied. Are we going to pass judgment on a few bad transactions or thousands of good ones?

But, to assume and post on forums that I have a higher chance of being scammed by Joe or ED than I do by RDR without knowing Joe or ED, doesn't seem right! Simply based on RDR is selling morph X for $5000 and Joe and Ed are selling them for $3000.


For RDR it may be valued at $5000, for Joe and Ed $3000 is grand. Who is right and who is wrong? Maybe in some eyes Joe and Ed are crap because they sell for less! Maybe in other eyes the other price is overpriced. I think we all need to respect each other and it seems every time someone posts about a good deal or being happy with a purchase that is below what others feel, it's a becomes mess and lets kill these threads!

[BALLISTIC BOAS]

It should always be about what you want and what you like...
I myself have never bragged about "who" I bought from... Now if I was walking past booths say Greg Graziani, 8ball, RDR... and I saw an animal I liked... and then I saw some guy with only a couple of tables and a fraction of the animals but he had a stunning spider just as beautiful as any that the others had...but cheaper... I'd still opt for it. To me a Ball Python is a Ball python... Whether it's a RDR or a Graziani... Now of course I'm new to the whole show circuit but I've seen a few unknown or smaller known breeders with animals just as beautiful as the "big guy's"...

Now the question here is this... Everyone's talking about buying from the big breeders... What about the guy on BP.net who has been keeping ball pythons for a few years decides to take on breeding (alot of 'em on here including myself) produces some clutches and decides to put "them" on the market... He prices a little bit lower than the big guys but offers great customer service, has healthy & very beautiful animals keeps track of all of their records; weight, feeding, sheds & ect,... Are you going to not purchase from him because his price is lower? Does that automatically make his animals lower quality?

The fact is... Not everyone buying morphs are breeders, though alot are or have the intent to. Alot of the people that post about a low price aren't really bragging either... It's more so excitement and happiness and the fact that they want to share that. Alot of people are cool with it, the others that see these snakes as $$$ (investment/business) it's a nightmare...

Adam made a comment that "I say good for the people that get the deals! ... They have a right to brag! "

I'd say it's more happiness but ok...

Then he writes: Would you really feel good about a "het" that someone needed to move so badly that they dropped the price at least a thousand dollars below market value?

Well I myself and I'm sure most of everybody on here probably would...why shouldn't you? If you got a good deal and paid below the rest, if you actually paid below market value (I mean who is to say what is market value?). Here you have some saying $750 is market for Spiders and others saying $1000!! Why would you feel bad about it? If I needed $$$ and decided to sell my Pied (say I had one) for $1000, why should you feel bad about buying it?

[Freakie_frog]

it seems every time someone posts about a good deal or being happy with a purchase that is below what others feel, it's a becomes mess and lets kill these threads!

Agreed! I would feel like junk to know that I got flamed for saying that I got my spider at 15% below normal cost (which I didn't). I would want people to be happy for me and congratulate me on finding a good deal. I mean for all they know I look for 5 months at every breeder on every sight to find the one I like for the price I could do. I'd be happy for someone that found morph x for what they can afford. I mean car dealers deal with this everyday you can buy a chevy 1500 for 16500.00 at dealer one and the same truck for 1200.00 at dealer two. Dealer one will not get his feeling hurt if you buy the cheaper car. Why? Because there'll be some come along that'll pay them 16500.00 and be just as happy as the other guy.

See what I'm saying

[djslurp1200]

Agreed! I would feel like junk to know that I got flamed for saying that I got my spider at 15% below normal cost (which I didn't). I would want people to be happy for me and congratulate me on finding a good deal. I mean for all they know I look for 5 months at every breeder on every sight to find the one I like for the price I could do. I'd be happy for someone that found morph x for what they can afford. I mean car dealers deal with this everyday you can buy a chevy 1500 for 16500.00 at dealer one and the same truck for 1200.00 at dealer two. Dealer one will not get his feeling hurt if you buy the cheaper car. Why? Because there'll be some come along that'll pay them 16500.00 and be just as happy as the other guy.

See what I'm saying

I totally see what your saying... Not only that but another way to look at it is if that chevy 1500 is priced at $16,500. at the dealership and you walk up there with $13.5K or $14K in $100 bills and put it on the table "take it or leave it" the chances are he's going to take the money...Cash speaks much louder than words, especially in person...

[rabernet]

Here's my input - for what it's worth. I have purchased my morphs from Adam - he won't admit it, but most of us consider him a big breeder, and from Justin Kobylka, a smaller breeder.


With Adam, I know that the value of my purchase far exceeds "just" the animal. I know that at any time, I can pick up the phone for breeding advice, or if something is "wonky" with my animal, that he'll care as much as I do. An example of that is my het hypo. I noticed a week after purchasing him that he had something "odd" with his eye (I believe now, probably a retained eyecap, as it disappeared after his first shed with me). I trusted Adam after the sale as well - sent him pictures, and even after I thought it was resolved, he private messaged me a week later with an offer of how to resolve the issue, which wasn't needed - but the fact that he didn't consider the sale over until I was 100% satisfied spoke volumes to me.

With Justin, I've seen his collection, I know he paid prime money for his foundation animals, pied from Pete Kahl, clowns from BHB and VPI, and his lavendar albino from another big breeder (who escapes me now). I read his reputation on BOI as a starting point, and I consulted with Adam to see if he had heard anything about Justin and although he had not purchased from him, he felt he was a good guy to buy from. At the time, Adam wasn't producing het clowns, and Justin's collection was awesome. I could have purchased a het clown male for much less than I paid for mine, but I knew that I would get the same level of service from Justin (not a big named breeder) as I would from someone like Adam, from his reputation, and my personal interactions with him.

For ME, it's worth it to purchase from someone who will be there for me for years to come. I have no doubt that if for some reason, one of my animals from Adam were to - god forbid - die, Adam wouldn't point fingers at me. He'd want to know the facts, but he'd care, and he'd most likely have a resolution (even though he is under no obligation to at this point) that would make me very happy. That's just how he does business, and how he gets repeat business and referrals.

For me, I like the "fringe" benefits involved in paying a little more for what I have no doubt will prove out (with my hets) and knowing that my animals come from quality stock. I take a lot of pride in how selective I have been in building my personal collection, I think the extra money and time will pay off in the long run.