Morph King Reptiles . . .

[BALLISTIC BOAS]

you cant go wrong with vpi. they are one of the greats of this biz.

[RedDevil]

Indeed, because this industry is chalk full of examples of a genetic trait managing to find its way into 1 breeders hands, and remain there for 6 years.

Just because it isn't a common occurance doesn't mean it can not occur.

All "new morphs" should be viewed as nothing more than a non-genetic mutation until proven otherwise. Not the other way around.

That I can agree with. Unfortunately for me, all I have to go off of is their site, and it has been proven according to them. Obviously niether one of us are in any position to know if they lied or not.

The whole claim behind this is that the first albino yellow blush (the first double recessive) was produced from a wild caught albino male. That would mean that this wild caught albino male had to be het for yellow blush. Meaning, both parents had to have the Albino gene, and one parent had to have the Yellow Blush gene.

I didn't know it came from a WC animal. It may be in their description, but I never did read the whole thing.

Now, anyone here aware of a wild-caught Albino het Piebald? How about an Albino het Clown? I'm not.

A visual double recessive is far more of a stretch than one that is visual for one trait and het for another.

But by some miracle of odds, Joe of MKR, previously a car salesman, manages to locate the only known wild-caught ball python that was homozygous for one recessive trait, and heterozygous for a second recessive trait.

The platinum is made with more than one gene, as is the ebony. Both of which have been caught in the wild. Not quite as unlikely to happen as an animal visual for one recessive trait and het for another, but the platinum really isn't that far off either.

And in some stroke of luck, managed to produce visible Double Recessives, in his first generation (all without having any Yellow Blush hets to breed the Albino het Yellow Blush too!).

John Piro hatched out a lavender albino from a het lav male to a w/c female, and Ralph Davis hatched out a clown from a caramel male to a clown female. As unlikely as it is, it still happens.

[jhall1468]

Just because it isn't a common occurance doesn't mean it can not occur.

You're right it does happen, the difference is, MKR has been selling these for some time, and yet, no one has come forward with a homozygous Yellow Blush morph.

That I can agree with. Unfortunately for me, all I have to go off of is their site, and it has been proven according to them. Obviously niether one of us are in any position to know if they lied or not.

True, however the fact that no one else has proven them makes this odd. One profound difference between MKR and the other proven morphs, is there is no evidence, with the exception of a few pics of what could be the same snake.

There is simply NOT enough evidence to call this a proven mutation, and certainly not enough to be selling homozygous animals.

A visual double recessive is far more of a stretch than one that is visual for one trait and het for another.

Umm... what? Double Recessives COME from animals that are homozygous for one gene and het for another, or double het for the gene. You can't have a double recessive unless both parents already carry both genes.

The platinum is made with more than one gene, as is the ebony. Both of which have been caught in the wild. Not quite as unlikely to happen as an animal visual for one recessive trait and het for another, but the platinum really isn't that far off either.

I'm assuming you mean the Lesser Platinum, and I can assure you, the Lesser is a Heterozygous Codominant mutation. One gene. And I'd love to see a wild caught ebony (yb x granite)...

John Piro hatched out a lavender albino from a het lav male to a w/c female,

Well, that's entirely different. The example I gave was an Albino het Yellow Blush breeding to an Albino, in the wild. Certainly not the same thing as a known het breeding to a w/c female that happened to be het as well.

Ralph Davis hatched out a clown from a caramel male to a clown female. As unlikely as it is, it still happens.

The question remains on whether either of those animals were wild caught. Even then, it's still different.

You're examples are breeders hitting crazy odds, but the probability increases substantially when we breed selectively. We aren't talking about a breeder picking two snakes that will make a good pair... we are talking about TWO WILD animals meeting in the WILD. Totally different dynamic... not to mention the considerablly greater survival rate of eggs in captivity versus eggs in the wild.

Your examples are in a closed system... in the wild (an open system) the variables are much greater. Of course, I was unable to find either of your examples, and certainly can't find where a wild caught ebony was found.

[Emilio]

Andre If I were you I'd send them back the bp , get your money back and try to find a het albino at you current bp's size.

[RedDevil]

You're right it does happen, the difference is, MKR has been selling these for some time, and yet, no one has come forward with a homozygous Yellow Blush morph.

I wasn't aware of how long they had been selling them for. That is rather odd.

Nobody has come forward either way, though. Nobody has said they produced them, and nobody has bought into them and complained about not producing them either.

There is simply NOT enough evidence to call this a proven mutation, and certainly not enough to be selling homozygous animals.

What is not enough information? They have apparently (again basing this one what they have stated) reproduced the yellow blush trait a few times.

Umm... what? Double Recessives COME from animals that are homozygous for one gene and het for another, or double het for the gene. You can't have a double recessive unless both parents already carry both genes.

Umm... It could have come from a double het blush albino x het albino. That's a far cry from two double hets finding each other in the wild and hitting the 1/16 odds like in the poor examples you have given.

I'm assuming you mean the Lesser Platinum, and I can assure you, the Lesser is a Heterozygous Codominant mutation. One gene.

No, I mean the original platinum. The one that so far has only been produced by breeding lessers to normal looking siblings.

And I'd love to see a wild caught ebony (yb x granite)

Feel free to visit Graziani's website.

Well, that's entirely different. The example I gave was an Albino het Yellow Blush breeding to an Albino, in the wild. Certainly not the same thing as a known het breeding to a w/c female that happened to be het as well.

Umm... Why in the world would both parent have to be albino? They could have simply both been het albino with one being a het blush, aswell.

And the entire point of bringing up John's luck with hatching out a lavender from a w/c female is the fact that the same thing could have happened with MKR. They just so happened to have gotten a female het that they thought was normal, and bred the albino het blush to it.

You're examples are breeders hitting crazy odds

Umm... that was the point; "crazy odds" happen.

Of course, I was unable to find either of your examples, and certainly can't find where a wild caught ebony was found.

You mustn't have looked too hard then. John's story is somewhere in the KS forum archives, and has been brought up on other forums. The ebony is owned by the Grazianis.

[Regal Boids]

Okay, I just got off the phone with Wes. He is going to be sending me some pictures. Once I get them I will post them on here. He also said that they seem to be compatible with the SK axanthics because when a HXIX is breed to a snake keeper axanthic you get more axanthics? I will post pics when I get them.

-Andre

[SnakeySnakeSnake]

You have to keep in mind exactly what morphs it is het for. A double het snow male is probably around $1k (that's just a guess; haven't noticed any for sale), but you can bet that a double het for lavender albino pied is going to cost a ton more than that.

We're talking about an animal that has a good amount of blushing, not some crazy new morph. I doubt that it would command much more of a price than a normal would on its own (hence it being really cheap as a cross aswell).

So a double het snow male is $1k? Ok giving you that, but this was supposed to be a homo het, one more set of genes mixed in = much more expensive.

An enhancer morph tends to be worth a bit anyway, even if it is just more blushing, ie yb?

Anyway $500 for a homozygous + het anything would seem very fishy. (my only point

[RedDevil]

So a double het snow male is $1k? Ok giving you that, but this was supposed to be a homo het, one more set of genes mixed in = much more expensive.

An enhancer morph tends to be worth a bit anyway, even if it is just more blushing, ie yb?

Anyway $500 for a homozygous + het anything would seem very fishy.

YBs actually make something though (super stripe, ebony, ivory, etc.). A recessive animal that does nothing but add blushing to a snake is not going to command a price much higher (if higher at all) than a normal would. If I ever stumbled across recessive banded/reduced patterned/blushing animals, I would simply sell them off as normals.

EDIT:

And I would completely agree with your point if it were not for the fact that the yellow blush on its own looks like nothing more than a nice normal.

[jhall1468]

I wasn't aware of how long they had been selling them for. That is rather odd.

Nobody has come forward either way, though. Nobody has said they produced them, and nobody has bought into them and complained about not producing them either.

That's the odd part... nothing. If there were comments either way I'd be less willing to make my claims, but the fact that "nothing" has been said is why I find this to be shaddy at the very least.

What is not enough information? They have apparently (again basing this one what they have stated) reproduced the yellow blush trait a few times.

I want to see a homozygous Yellow Blush. I want to see the "actual" genetics (they don't even say if it's recessive, co dom, dom... that's weird). The ONLY pics they have are of Albino Yellow Blush's... that is just absurd.

Umm... It could have come from a double het blush albino x het albino. That's a far cry from two double hets finding each other in the wild and hitting the 1/16 odds like in the poor examples you have given.

Genetically and geographically speaking they are both equally absurd. A double het and a het not only mating in the wild, but successfully producing an albino het "yellow blush" egg, which survives the "wild" long enough to be brought to the US and bred to a normal-appearing female, which also happens to be het for a morph no one had ever seen, and happens to hit those 1/16 odds again producing a homozygous double recessive animal...

You are reading this as you type it right?

No, I mean the original platinum. The one that so far has only been produced by breeding lessers to normal looking siblings.

Ah... platty daddy. I was under the assumption that the genetics behind the homo platinum are completely unknown, so it's a little early to assume it's two genes at all.

Feel free to visit Graziani's website.

That's very cool, was completely unaware of that. However, we can't ignore the statistical differences between producing a double homo from a Codom X Dom versus a Double Recessive... HUGE difference.

Umm... Why in the world would both parent have to be albino? They could have simply both been het albino with one being a het blush, aswell.

You're right, the odds are slightly better. Using my previous point, maybe that's equally as likely as only getting hit by lightning once while winning the lottery. Either way... it's absurd to believe those odds will not only be hit, but it will survive AND be located by exporters.

And the entire point of bringing up John's luck with hatching out a lavender from a w/c female is the fact that the same thing could have happened with MKR. They just so happened to have gotten a female het that they thought was normal, and bred the albino het blush to it.

Yes, and let's just ignore the fact that John's example was a het x het, not a double het x het which is signifigantly different, statistically. And let's just ignore the fact that John putting them together was signifigantly different than the two locating themselves in the wild.

No offense but your examples are not anywhere near the same statistical variations that this would require, for an appropriate analogy: I saw it is falls on the side of completely impractical to win the lottery and get struck by lightning twice. You come back and give examples of people getting struck by lightning twice to prove I'm wrong. That does not logically follow.

Umm... that was the point; "crazy odds" happen.

See above...

You mustn't have looked too hard then. John's story is somewhere in the KS forum archives, and has been brought up on other forums. The ebony is owned by the Grazianis.

See above...

Okay, I just got off the phone with Wes. He is going to be sending me some pictures. Once I get them I will post them on here. He also said that they seem to be compatible with the SK axanthics because when a HXIX is breed to a snake keeper axanthic you get more axanthics? I will post pics when I get them.

Look forward to it.

[RedDevil]

I want to see a homozygous Yellow Blush. I want to see the "actual" genetics (they don't even say if it's recessive, co dom, dom... that's weird). The ONLY pics they have are of Albino Yellow Blush's... that is just absurd.

They don't directly say that it is recessive, but they do imply it by referring to het blush.

And if you want to see just the blush, look at Andre's pictures. It looks exactly like you would think based off of the albino blush; I light normal with blushing.

Genetically and geographically speaking they are both equally absurd. A double het and a het not only mating in the wild, but successfully producing an albino het "yellow blush" egg, which survives the "wild" long enough to be brought to the US

Who's to say it wasn't farmed? Wouldn't have to last in the wild at all if that were the case. And a double het x het making an albino het blush really isn't that absurd to begin with seeing as its a 50/50 shot that any albino produced from the pairing would also carry the blush gene.

You are reading this as you type it right?

Somewhat. I do glance over it first to see if I want to bother replying. It's also way less confusing this way.

Ah... platty daddy. I was under the assumption that the genetics behind the homo platinum are completely unknown, so it's a little early to assume it's two genes at all.

Not completely unknown. It may not be two genes, but the way it is produced is somewhat comparable.

That's very cool, was completely unaware of that. However, we can't ignore the statistical differences between producing a double homo from a Codom X Dom versus a Double Recessive... HUGE difference.

That it is. I completely forgot the point of me bringing that up. There was a point, though... I think.

You're right, the odds are slightly better. Using my previous point, maybe that's equally as likely as only getting hit by lightning once while winning the lottery. Either way... it's absurd to believe those odds will not only be hit, but it will survive AND be located by exporters.

You know what else is absurd? Your constant references to lightning and lottery. Those really do make your points more valid, don't they?

Yes, and let's just ignore the fact that John's example was a het x het, not a double het x het which is signifigantly different, statistically. And let's just ignore the fact that John putting them together was signifigantly different than the two locating themselves in the wild.

How is it significantly different? Double het blush albino x het albino. The odds hit on the albino (which is something that really isn't amazing) and he lucked out with the 50% het part of it.

And let's completely ignore the fact that the het lavender female could have been bred to any other morph John owned. What are the odds that out of all the wc snakes that come in, one is het for lavender albino, and not only that, but it goes to a breeder that owns lavender stock. Then there is the fact that it could have been bred to any other morph out there, but it just so happened to have went with another het lavender and hit on the odds first go.

No offense but your examples are not anywhere near the same statistical variations that this would require, for an appropriate analogy

And comparing a visual morph het for something to a double homozygous morph is statistically comparable? Hardly.