Update on Fluffy's clutch + pics

[elevatethis]

Alright, just for the sake of arguement (arguement in terms of healthy debate, not a negative connotation...) I've got a couple points to share. Not trying to offend, just something you should consider.

Those taking the spiritual outlook on things- you discount our theory that ball pythons don't have human emotions because we can't measure them. In fact, we CAN measure the ability of organisms to feel these things based on studies of their brains. Most, if not all, reptiles lack the more advanced centers of the brain for creating these emotions. Emotions are nothing more than chemical reactions to stimuli that take place in the brain. This may sound disturbing to some but its just the truth.

Furthermore, the latter approach rejects our hypothesis on the notion that we reject what we can't measure. In the very next breath, you take a stance on something that you don't have any proof for either. What's up with that? Run that logic through and your arguement comes crumbling down.

If you feel the strong urge to believe it, then believe it. My concern is that others come to this site and read portions of a thread advocating maternal incubation when it is, in fact, in the absolute best interests of the animal to incubate artificially the eggs.

Rapture, I wish you the best of luck and have no doubt you love your snakes and are totally psyched about seeing those babies come out. You mentioned that one of the eggs has started to lose shape a little bit...totally natural and if all is well the others will follow suit as well. That's basically just the babies getting ready to hatch. Try candling the eggs at this point, you might be able to see the embryos move around a little bit here and there. You definitely did your homework on maternal incubation and I think all will be well.

The point here is that all the while Rapture's female has been incubating these eggs...she could have been eating and regaining the mass she's given up in her reproductive effort. That notion combined with the fact that in the long run, hatch rates are higher for artificial incubation, proves that artificial incubation in, in fact, in the better interests of all parties involved.

[Sapphire7]

When animals breed they take a risk. When we breed our animals we take a risk. Sh ehad the eggs that we let her have tso let her have them because that was the risk someone takes when deciding if they wanted to breed and take it. But I disagree with a lot fo science and how scientist think. They can think that they lack emotion censing chemicals or a piece in their brain that says they are lacking it. I dont care, not liek we can ask a snake and say "How do you feel"? We cannot. And every animal and human varies with their bodily functions who knows that piece missing may not really be missing may be somewhere else in the brain than where the "humans" feleing chemicals are located.

Edited: Like how scientist has a half anastesia patient and they'd poke the brian and ask what they felt. We cannot do that with the snakes or any other animal. So we just cannot tell. Another

[recycling goddess]

Brad,

I think this comes back to what you believe and we need to respectfully agree to disagree. Scientifically we cannot prove the existance of God/Goddess/All-That-Is but many of us believe regardless.

Some forums believe very strongly that live feeding is completely against the animals best interest and sees anyone who does so as irresponsible. Doesn't make them right... just their opinion but they see it as fact.

I know a woman who will not allow her dogs (she's a breeder) to birth naturally. She insists on them having a c-section with every litter. It's her belief that this way she doesn't risk loosing a pup... is she right? Well in my opinion she isn't but in her opinion she's taking the animals best interests at heart. (and her vet agrees with her... and so, in her mind, she has scientific backup)

Sapphire,

You need to re-read your posts or use spell check. Most people don't take posts very seriously when there are so many spelling errors.

[elevatethis]

I agree that is what it boils down to, and I just wanted to thank you one of the more intelligent dialouges on this matter. Most people on your side of the fence just clam up and take the defensive immediately, eliminating any chance for an intelligent discussion.

Agree to disagree? I can handle that!

[Sapphire7]

Sapphire,

You need to re-read your posts or use spell check. Most people don't take posts very seriously when there are so many spelling errors.

Yes I agree with you. But my computer has been very slow as of late. And I don’t know why. Sometimes as I type it misses a word or a letter I put down making my typing seem very pathetic. And Im sorry for that. Right now I have to type in my Word doc. The copy paste what I type into ball-python.net forums or while I type it will not register anything I type. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Kilo]

I don't mean to completely change the subject again... but what is the update on the eggs?

[Spaniard]

christie,

i believe that every living thing has a soul, a spirit and i believe they all have emotions and feelings. i've felt a tree cry when it was hacked down. i believe that every living thing has the ability to feel, and has the ability for emotions... because i don't believe it's all about the size of the brain... but the size of their soul!

and i'm cool with agreeing to disagree... i don't expect everyone to believe what i do.

I believe you're wiccan right? If I'm wrong forgive me, and please let me know what it is that you practice. Although I haven't found a religion or what not that fully encompasses what I believe, I can say that I can relate to your story of the tree being cut down. Although I am a firm believer that emotions are primarily a human trait. I do believe that every organism has its place in the energy network of the universe. Whether this be a soul, or just positive and negative energy I do not know. Trees have huge energy signatures and when cut down this sudden amputation from the physical world leads to an explosion of energy being release. Getting back to the point I think this can be explained by how our brains interpreted that energy when it was released, pairing it up with crying b/c that was the closest thing we could relate to the energy the tree was releasing. Not discrediting what you heard just throwing out another possible interpretation, might not have been that the tree was crying but that it was giving off huge amounts of negative energy that you interpretted as crying. Dunno if that even makes sense but its so hard to put concepts lilke this into words.

I don't believe my snakes have emotions, I do believe they have energy both positive and negative like everything in life that it up for interpretation by those who can tune in on it.

[recycling goddess]

brad,

you are welcome and thanks for giving back intelligent conversation

rich,

it doesn't really matter how you want to explain it - i can say that when i cut a tomatoe, it slices nicely whereas another way to see it is... the knife pushes against the skin and as it rubs it's sharp edge the skin gives away to the sharpness of the blade and the insides are released.

either way i end up with a tomatoe sandwich... toasted of course

and yup, i'm an eclectic wiccan/shaman - so... pagan will do

[recycling goddess]

I don't mean to completely change the subject again... but what is the update on the eggs?

ya... let's talk about this!

[Rapture]

I did read that article, but I did not think it is adequate enough to relate it to captive breeding. First you are taking wild animals, and you can not know the history of these females. Secondly they incubated on aspen. I don't know of any articles that recommends that as a substrate, and the humidity levels were not measured. It's possible a lot of the the moisture loss would be a result of the incubating technique alone. Thirdly the study focused solely on the eggs, and the care of the mother was never measured. They say they were apparently healthy, but based on what criteria? Anyway, I wasn't very impressed with the article.

I agree that this subject is a touchy one. Maternal incubation is done, but it's not very common due to the success of artificial incubation. I'm not saying that you can't do it, but that too much emphasis is placed on the females rights to hatch her own eggs, the beauty of the process or other intangible measurements. I'm rooting for these eggs to hatch as well, and I hope they are some healthy babies.

I'm not sure what kind of information you'd need on the brooding females, but If I were to guess I'd assume that captive bred and raised animals would be in better health than a lot of wild specimens you could find. They are fed every week year-round as babies, and fed every week except for during cooling as adults. CB's would most likely not have internal or external parisites hindering their health as many of those in the wild do. Even if brooding was stressful on the female, wouldn't a CB specimen be better prepared for it health wise than a WC female?

I thought the more important results of the experiment were the condition of the babies in each group. The maternally incubated babies pipped sooner, absorbed more from the egg before hatching, came out of the egg faster, were more alert, and larger when compared to the artificially incubated babies.

The care of the mother was not included in this lab report, but another one of the links I posted is a study soley about brooding females.

I am not trying to argue with you or anything, I just do think that the studies did have some important findings. And I thought that it was important that these were all clutches hatched in captivity, and these results were still found.

Thanks for the good wishes toward the eggs.